Challenge for Wilderness Supporters

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-24 20:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The Who is a troll.



He's here because he's frantically trying to justify having stuck his daughter in ASR.



He's so loud and vociferous because he's trying to convince himself, not us.



That, and he obviously likes the attention.



Julie"

Julie,

Please-  go write another book to read in the can.

[Anonymous]

Hey, you can read Dostoyevsky in the can!

 :rofl:

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-24 18:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-06-24 18:13:00, TheWho wrote:



From what I have read here, people I have spoke to in the industry, my own experiences.

Then make that clear.  When you say it's 'considered to be' you infer a credibility it hasn't earned.  People in the industry are operating under the either misguided or malicious belief (financial and the sadists that are bred in and attracted to these places) that these places are therapeutic or effective in building kids self esteem or life skills or whatever new name they come up with.  There is not and never has been one shred of proof that there are any long term benefits and, as is coming more and more to light, damage is done to the psyche.  Some never recover.

Also if you read some of the experiences people have had at Straight and seed threads here at fornits and then compare them to the experiences from say ASR or Carlbrook threads you will see a huge difference.

Funny you should mention that.  I spent two years in Straight.  I've read the Carlbrook and ASR threads.  It's nothing but different wrapping.  Those two might not be as physically abusive as Straight was or Spring Creek or Tranquility Bay, but believe me.  The more I read the more it disturbs me.  You can't fuck with these kids like that.  I saw a lot of physical abuse but the worst, the stuff that lasted with me and really fucked me up for damn near 20 years was the isolation.  They fuck with your instincts.  They turn kids against each other on a level that you cannot comprehend.  The kinds of stress these kids are under is absolutely unbelievable.  You're ripped away from everything that ever made you feel safe and secure.   I'm telling you the idolation, feeling like I wasn't part of the world anymore.  When I tried to go back in my friends (who were all doing much worse things than I was) had all grown out of their stupidity and moved on to become productive, happy people.  I never did feel like I fit back in.  I couldn't fit in with other people either because of the intense experience I went through.  I thought of that when the ASR employee said that the kids have a maturity level beyond their peers.  That's true in one sense and false in another.  I didn't have the opportunity to find my own way, I had it drilled and consequenced and phase dropped and started over into me, so I lacked that maturity but I had been through something that none of them could even begin to imagine and that gives you the kind of maturity that just feels old and tired.  Funny thing is, I honestly didn't realize this for about 10 years.  I tried so hard to please my father that I didn't realize what had happened to me.  It wasn't until someone showed me a website dealing with cults (on an unrelated matter) that the pieces of the puzzle began to fall into place.  Now I knew why I never felt right.  Now I knew why I struggled so much when everyone around me seemed to be able to cope so well.



 

The later are changing and evolving.  ASR has had the opportunity to experience an excellent success rate.

Really?  Do you have anything to back that up other than exit or follow up surveys done by the schools?  

"

I'd like to hear Who and the other ASR person (if in fact there IS another) address this.  I think it's one of the most important points.  I believe that ASR is not physically abusive like some others but that really makes no difference.  The damage to the psyche is far more devastating.

[TheWho]

All right TSW, I'll take a shot.

Then make that clear. When you say it's 'considered to be' you infer a credibility it hasn't earned. People in the industry are operating under the either misguided or malicious belief (financial and the sadists that are bred in and attracted to these places) that these places are therapeutic or effective in building kids self esteem or life skills or whatever new name they come up with. There is not and never has been one shred of proof that there are any long term benefits and, as is coming more and more to light, damage is done to the psyche. Some never recover.

I think I have been clear, all along, that my experience is as a parent with a child at ASR and experience with SUWS.  But in your own statement above People in the industry are operating under the either misguided or malicious belief??? without making it clear how you know this.  Is this one program you are familiar or many and how are you qualified to make this statement.  I want you to make this clear also if you expect others to.
I don?t mind complying to your wishes but we should all be held to the same standard (your self included.)

Funny you should mention that. I spent two years in Straight. I've read the Carlbrook and ASR threads. It's nothing but different wrapping. Those two might not be as physically abusive as Straight was or Spring Creek or Tranquility Bay, but believe me. The more I read the more it disturbs me. You can't fuck with these kids like that. I saw a lot of physical abuse but the worst, the stuff that lasted with me and really fucked me up for damn near 20 years was the isolation. They fuck with your instincts. They turn kids against each other on a level that you cannot comprehend. The kinds of stress these kids are under is absolutely unbelievable. You're ripped away from everything that ever made you feel safe and secure. I'm telling you the idolation, feeling like I wasn't part of the world anymore. When I tried to go back in my friends (who were all doing much worse things than I was) had all grown out of their stupidity and moved on to become productive, happy people. I never did feel like I fit back in. I couldn't fit in with other people either because of the intense experience I went through. I thought of that when the ASR employee said that the kids have a maturity level beyond their peers. That's true in one sense and false in another. I didn't have the opportunity to find my own way, I had it drilled and consequenced and phase dropped and started over into me, so I lacked that maturity but I had been through something that none of them could even begin to imagine and that gives you the kind of maturity that just feels old and tired. Funny thing is, I honestly didn't realize this for about 10 years. I tried so hard to please my father that I didn't realize what had happened to me. It wasn't until someone showed me a website dealing with cults (on an unrelated matter) that the pieces of the puzzle began to fall into place. Now I knew why I never felt right. Now I knew why I struggled so much when everyone around me seemed to be able to cope so well.

But you have to understand that not every experience is the same, not every school is the same.  These kids at ASR can just get kicked out if they stop working.  Could you do that?  Could you just say ?These people are wacko and sick, I?m outa here?  Well they can at ASR.  It really is different.  

When I first came on to fornits I felt I would be able to teach you guys a thing or two because I thought all TBS?s and RTC were the same and beneficial to everyone, but I learned this is not the case and some are very abusive and unhealthy.
But also over the past year I have seen what a tight bunch all of you are.  If something positive about a school is brought to light or an improvement is made there is so much posturing and/or denial i.e.

No fences:  ?Well, this doesn?t mean anything, there is still the mid control that goes on, even if they leave , their parents will put them in a tougher program?  This can apply to any situation in life its not within the schools control.  The school is still abusive.

No escorts or restraints:  ?Well, this still is no improvement, restraints don?t have to be physical, they could be mental.  They abuse the kids, that we heard and believe?

100% of the kids who apply to college get in  ?Well, Hmmm,  ASR is unaccredited and  therefore must be hiding something?, doesn?t matter that the kids are getting a good education and tied in with the local school system, this point is ignored.  (Don?t get stuck on the 100% stat it was mentioned by a previous ASR person in the past, probably a one year stat) I don?t believe in absolutes.

You see no difference between what you read on the Straight threads and threads like ASR because you don?t want to.  If you admit that maybe one kid benefited from one program over the past 30 years then there must be more because one is an aberration more than one is a success and statistically we could not justify or explain the ?one off ? that occurred and would have to expect more.  Expecting more would lead to a process that was working (having a positive effect) and this goes against what many here at fornits stands for, or at least posts openly.

No two things are alike !!  look and accept the differences and start thinking for yourselves, nothing is black and white.

[TheWho]

Previous was mine

[Anonymous]

And what exactly was your point, WHO? That maybe, perhaps, one kid was helped in SOME program? Just maybe, perhaps the kid just grew up, and was going to be OK, program or NOT.
Again, STFU.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-25 18:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"All right TSW, I'll take a shot.

I am NOT TSW.  Don't make that mistake again.

I think I have been clear, all along, that my experience is as a parent with a child at ASR and experience with SUWS.

Once again, when you make a statement like "ASR is considered to be" you infer a credibility not earned.  

 

But in your own statement above People in the industry are operating under the either misguided or malicious belief??? without making it clear how you know this.

Because no one in all the decades that this shit has been going on has been able to come up with one shred of proof that these places are any more effective than keeping your kid at home.  The percentage of teens who truly need to be removed from the home is infantesimile and those truly do have emotional or mental issues that cannot be properly addressed in those places and are very often made much worse.

But you have to understand that not every experience is the same, not every school is the same.

By the ASR employees own admission this is an issue with the students.  No, not every school is the same BUT, and this is an important but, they ALL use the same basic techniques experimented with and perfected on myself and thousands of others over the decades.  The process may be more subtle, but the results can be just as damaging.

 

These kids at ASR can just get kicked out if they stop working.  Could you do that?

No, but I'm all too familiar with 'exit plans' and the like.  That's not much of a choice.


 

Could you just say ?These people are wacko and sick, I?m outa here?  Well they can at ASR.  It really is different.  

There's the exit plan issue and the issue of the subleties of the process now.  I've given you links before to Singer's and Clifton's studies.  I cannot stress enough what isolation can do to a person.  You lose touch with what's normal.  There is no system of checks and balances and what begins as seeming freaky slowly becomes normal.  Combine that with knowing that if you fuck up here, you're pretty muched fucked.  If you try and say 'these people are whacked, I'm outta here'  you're confronted or cajoled or talked into or threatened with shunning from the family and it's a pretty powerful tool.  THAT is what I'm talking about when I say you can't fuck with a kid's psyche like that.

When I first came on to fornits I felt I would be able to teach you guys a thing or two because I thought all TBS?s and RTC were the same and beneficial to everyone, but I learned this is not the case and some are very abusive and unhealthy.

But also over the past year I have seen what a tight bunch all of you are.  If something positive about a school is brought to light or an improvement is made there is so much posturing and/or denial i.e.

Again, because the FUNDAMENTALS of how these places work and I don't deny they work,  they do change behaviors but at a price, are inherently dangerous.  

I>No fences:  ?Well, this doesn?t mean anything, there is still the mid control that goes on, even if they leave , their parents will put them in a tougher program?  This can apply to any situation in life its not within the schools control.  The school is still abusive.

See above and I'm not saying ASR is out there beating kids, but I am saying that they are emotionally and mentally damaging.

i>No escorts or restraints:  ?Well, this still is no improvement, restraints don?t have to be physical, they could be mental.  They abuse the kids, that we heard and believe?

See above.

100% of the kids who apply to college get in  ?Well, Hmmm,  ASR is unaccredited and  therefore must be hiding something?, doesn?t matter that the kids are getting a good education and tied in with the local school system, this point is ignored.  (Don?t get stuck on the 100% stat it was mentioned by a previous ASR person in the past, probably a one year stat) I don?t believe in absolutes.

But that's one of the major points.  They claim successes they cannot possibly back up.  Plus you really don't realize what has happened sometimes for years afterward.  There are people I went through my place with that are very successful 'program parent' standards (for lack of a better term) but they're just as fucked up as I was for the last twenty years or so.  Just in different ways.  

You see no difference between what you read on the Straight threads and threads like ASR because you don?t want to.

No, you're putting words in my mouth.  I do see differences, just not any that really matter.

If you admit that maybe one kid benefited from one program over the past 30 years then there must be more because one is an aberration more than one is a success and statistically we could not justify or explain the ?one off ? that occurred and would have to expect more.

First, you'd have to convince me that the person wouldn't have come out fine if they had just been left alone.  Give me something other than anecdotal stories that says that the school was the cause.


 

Expecting more would lead to a process that was working (having a positive effect) and this goes against what many here at fornits stands for, or at least posts openly.

Yes, because I believe that most of the kids that are in these schools and programs do not actually need to be there.  I think the fear mongerers and spin doctors have seen an opportunity and seized upon it.  Parents of teenagers are some of the most vulnerable targets.  They're all scared shitless and looking for THE answer.  These places promise them that answer but cannot and never have been able to back up their claims.

No two things are alike !!  look and accept the differences and start thinking for yourselves, nothing is black and white.

"

Well, actually this is.  Most kids who are in these places do not need to be there.  A child being removed from the home for any serious length of time is a huge risk and a LAST resort and again, those are the ones who are truly, honestly mentally ill and a TBS or RTC is the LAST place they should be.

[TheWho]

.

Because no one in all the decades that this shit has been going on has been able to come up with one shred of proof that these places are any more effective than keeping your kid at home. The percentage of teens who truly need to be removed from the home is infantesimile and those truly do have emotional or mental issues that cannot be properly addressed in those places and are very often made much worse.

But I have seen first hand as have many that these school are effective, very effective.  There haven?t been any studies or evidence that support that any children have been hurt by ASR, in fact the evidence supports overwhelmingly the opposite.  Kids are graduating and doing extremely well.  You know that if you have been listening and/or reading here, you just refuse to see it.

By the ASR employees own admission this is an issue with the students. No, not every school is the same BUT, and this is an important but, they ALL use the same basic techniques experimented with and perfected on myself and thousands of others over the decades. The process may be more subtle, but the results can be just as damaging.

Sure there are issues, if there were not I would be suspicious.  There are challenges with all schools.

No, but I'm all too familiar with 'exit plans' and the like. That's not much of a choice?...There's the exit plan issue and the issue of the subleties of the process now. I've given you links before to Singer's and Clifton's studies. I cannot stress enough what isolation can do to a person. You lose touch with what's normal. There is no system of checks and balances and what begins as seeming freaky slowly becomes normal. Combine that with knowing that if you fuck up here, you're pretty muched fucked. If you try and say 'these people are whacked, I'm outta here' you're confronted or cajoled or talked into or threatened with shunning from the family and it's a pretty powerful tool. THAT is what I'm talking about when I say you can't fuck with a kid's psyche like that.

Yes, but as you warned me, you are assuming you have credible evidence and you don?t about ASR.  But I do, I have worked with a child who tried to run.  There where no threats of harsher programs or treatment from myself or the school.
You are wrong here.  There is no isolation or screwing with the psyche.  It?s a therapeutic school for crying out load, what wrong with you.  The kids feel safe and it is a place for them to grow, why try to compare it to your experience, its not the same.  I know you really want it to be ,because it makes your cause more cohesive but it just isn?t.

Again, because the FUNDAMENTALS of how these places work and I don't deny they work, they do change behaviors but at a price, are inherently dangerous.

If they were all the same sure, but the fundamentals are different.  
Different animals different schools.

But that's one of the major points. They claim successes they cannot possibly back up. Plus you really don't realize what has happened sometimes for years afterward. There are people I went through my place with that are very successful 'program parent' standards (for lack of a better term) but they're just as fucked up as I was for the last twenty years or so. Just in different ways.

There are many people here at fornits, granted, many from straight, but that is basically it.  The thousands that have passed thru many of these programs are doing well and have moved on, or maybe they are all doing poorly.  How do we know, they are not here to talk to.  Of all the graduates from ASR we have seen what maybe one or two who didn?t do well.  Compare that to the local high school, or private school or boarding school even.

Yes, because I believe that most of the kids that are in these schools and programs do not actually need to be there. I think the fear mongerers and spin doctors have seen an opportunity and seized upon it. Parents of teenagers are some of the most vulnerable targets. They're all scared shitless and looking for THE answer. These places promise them that answer but cannot and never have been able to back up their claims.

Their parents who know them the best, love them and care for them think differently.  They know better than you or I.  These fear mongers as you call them can only prey on people who already know they have a problem and need help.  You cant sell a guy a horse unless he needs one.
An extremely small percentage of kids need to and end up in these programs and the parents get many other opinions before they take this big step.

I have seen the hype here, its over whelming.  Log in sometime when a child dies in a program.  Every article is posted.  If the coroner states it was accidental or due to a pre existing condition, people scream foul, if the the same coroner says the kids died from abuse it is viewed as gospel. Either way they are added to a list of kids who died that has no acceptance criteria.  Even though the death rate in TBS is no worse than any other school it isn?t viewed as such.
The industry has moved forward over the years and for at least the last year that I have been here the people here have stood still and have refused to recognize any growth and have taken on a group position that is very closed minded.  If you have been here for any length of time, as you claim, then you have seen it.  If you truly haven?t, wait for a new parent to log in or a child who claims to have done well in a program and then compare how they are treated here and then how a child who didn?t do well is treated here.  It is so apparent.

The information that gets in here (at fornits) is skewed data, if for any other reason the reception they receive when they start speaking.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-25 19:31:00, TheWho wrote:


But I have seen first hand as have many that these school are effective, very effective.  There haven?t been any studies or evidence that support that any children have been hurt by ASR, in fact the evidence supports overwhelmingly the opposite.  Kids are graduating and doing extremely well.  You know that if you have been listening and/or reading here, you just refuse to see it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.  I asked for something OTHER than anecdotal stories.  I asked for long term studies, objective research.  Why can't you just admit that NONE EXIST?

Sure there are issues, if there were not I would be suspicious.  There are challenges with all schools.

These are more than just issues.  This is fucking with someone's core.

Yes, but as you warned me, you are assuming you have credible evidence and you don?t about ASR.

I'm going on by what I've read on the ASR website and what you and other ASR supporters AND detractors have posted here.  

But I do, I have worked with a child who tried to run.  There where no threats of harsher programs or treatment from myself or the school.

You are wrong here.

Was this your daughter or another student?

 

There is no isolation

THE ASR EMPLOYEE WHO POSTED HERE RECENTLY ADMITTED IT'S A PROBLEM.  ARE YOU THAT FUCKING BLIND?

It?s a therapeutic school for crying out load, what wrong with you.

Show me the evidence that it has any therapeutic value whatsoever.  Evidence, not happy stories.


 

The kids feel safe and it is a place for them to grow, why try to compare it to your experience, its not the same.

I compare it to my experience because I see the similarities.  It's not exactly the same but it uses the same tactics albeit somewhat watered down.

 

I know you really want it to be ,because it makes your cause more cohesive but it just isn?t.

I don't have a cause.  One of the reasons I post anon is because I don't want to be associated with any organization or group of people.  I am on my own.

If they were all the same sure, but the fundamentals are different.

No they're not.  All therapeutic communites arose out of Synanon which begat The Seed which begat Straight which begat dozens of others and served as a model for hundreds of others.
 

Different animals different schools.

Subspecies.

There are many people here at fornits, granted, many from straight, but that is basically it.

You must be new.  :lol: No darlin'.  There are many from many different places.  Many have also come and gone long before you arrived.

 

The thousands that have passed thru many of these programs are doing well and have moved on, or maybe they are all doing poorly.  How do we know, they are not here to talk to.

This industry has gone unnoticed for a long time.  It's only now coming to light.  I saw a great way to explain the rise of these places.  The republicans like the programs because they can be seen as being tough on juvenile crime.  The dems like it because they can point to the 'softer' programs and say that they're doing something 'alternative'.  People are only now beginning to question the need for, the effectiveness of and the possible lasting damage from them


 

Of all the graduates from ASR we have seen what maybe one or two who didn?t do well.

How many would that be and how long have they been out?

Compare that to the local high school, or private school or boarding school even.

Compare what?  You haven't given me anything.

Their parents who know them the best, love them and care for them think differently.  They know better than you or I.

These parents have been bombarded with false information and rhetoric that makes them see evil behind every tree.  Teens scare the hell out of parents.  They're assholes.  They're selfish, self destructive, impulsive, thoughtless, risk taking individuals.  It's always been this way and always will be.  It's only been since the advent of 'therapeutic communities' AA and the self-help movement that it's become pathological.

 

These fear mongers as you call them can only prey on people who already know they have a problem and need help.  You cant sell a guy a horse unless he needs one.

No, but you can convince him that an animal with a pulled tendon needs thousands and thousands of dollars worth of expensive, experimental therapy to cure it.

I have seen the hype here, its over whelming.  Log in sometime when a child dies in a program.  Every article is posted.  If the coroner states it was accidental or due to a pre existing condition, people scream foul, if the the same coroner says the kids died from abuse it is viewed as gospel.

Specifics please and I'll be glad to address them.  You were screaming about the Martin Anderson case.  How much more evidence do you need?  The first coroner was shown to be a fucking moron and inept.  Not just in Martin's case but many others prior.  It was also shown that he shouldn't have even been doing the autopsy, it wasn't in his county  but he was sypathetic to the sheriff's that were under fire for the death.  You still refused to see anything wrong even in that case.  Tell me specifically which death you're referring to.

Even though the death rate in TBS is no worse than any other school it isn?t viewed as such.

And it shouldn't be.  The deaths in TBS schools are most often caused by restraint, or overexercising, or not being believed when complaining of a medical problem.  That doesn't happen in a regular school.

The industry has moved forward over the years and for at least the last year that I have been here the people here have stood still and have refused to recognize any growth and have taken on a group position that is very closed minded.

Because I disagree fundamentally with the idea of therapeutic communities.

 

If you have been here for any length of time, as you claim, then you have seen it.  If you truly haven?t, wait for a new parent to log in or a child who claims to have done well in a program and then compare how they are treated here and then how a child who didn?t do well is treated here.  It is so apparent.

Yes, I have seen it.  Fornits is brutal no doubt, but it doesn't make what I'm saying any less true.

The information that gets in here (at fornits) is skewed data, if for any other reason the reception they receive when they start speaking.

"

There is no data here.  People may link to data, but there is none here.  There are documents from various programs but they are what they are.  Fornits, to my knowledge, has never laid claim to any research.  They've only pointed to it.







Whew!  I'm getting really tired of cutting up your posts.  You just flat out ignore what you don't agree with.  Someone else needs to take over for a while.

btw, I've been a regular contributor here off and on for about 4 years now.

[Anonymous]

Thought THE WHO admitted he never had a daughter in this program, PERIOD. Now, he's back to saying he DID have a daughter in this program? His lies go round-and-round.

[Anonymous]

Does anybody else smell something fishy when theWho claims to have worked with one of these kids that "ran"?  What could possibly compel the school to call "somebody elses parent" to have them "work" with a child who isn't theirs.

BTW Who...I have never responded to any of your threads so rest assured...this is yet another person stepping up to call your BS.

I'm surprised that you keep it up...and please stop referring to yourself as the "quintessential yuppie sell out"...you gotta live large to claim that...and seeing that you are unemployed and sit at your computer 8 hours a day 6 days a week...or is that 12/7?...you obviously aren't "living large" and most certainly are not a "yuppie".

I believe that you are a Shill for ASR.

[Anonymous]

THE WHO has been "outed" over and over.
Been called everything from an employee, jerk...you name it.
A YUPPEE he ain't.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-25 21:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Does anybody else smell something fishy when theWho claims to have worked with one of these kids that "ran"?  What could possibly compel the school to call "somebody elses parent" to have them "work" with a child who isn't theirs.

I noticed that too.  That's why I asked him if he was talking about his daughter.  Hmmmm.

BTW Who...I have never responded to any of your threads so rest assured...this is yet another person stepping up to call your BS.



I'm surprised that you keep it up...and please stop referring to yourself as the "quintessential yuppie sell out"...you gotta live large to claim that...and seeing that you are unemployed and sit at your computer 8 hours a day 6 days a week...or is that 12/7?...you obviously aren't "living large" and most certainly are not a "yuppie".



I believe that you are a Shill for ASR."

He won't believe you but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one (other than TSW and DJ, love your passion guys but DAMN  :roll: ).

He didn't give himself that title Ginger did out of frustration when she thought he was a parent.  I'll be very interested to know what the real story is behind this guy.  For a long time I thought he was just a deluded parent looking to validate what they did but things just don't feel right.

[Troll Control]

Does anybody else smell something fishy when theWho claims to have worked with one of these kids that "ran"? What could possibly compel the school to call "somebody elses parent" to have them "work" with a child who isn't theirs.

Yes, this is extremely suspiscious. Ho did The Who have access to this child that ran from ASR?  Under what circumstances should The Who be "working with" children, especially those in crisis?

This is another very unlikely story from The Who, who has proven to be a self-revealed prevaricator of the highest order.

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-26 04:58:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"

Does anybody else smell something fishy when theWho claims to have worked with one of these kids that "ran"? What could possibly compel the school to call "somebody elses parent" to have them "work" with a child who isn't theirs.

Yes, this is extremely suspiscious. Ho did The Who have access to this child that ran from ASR?  Under what circumstances should The Who be "working with" children, especially those in crisis?



This is another very unlikely story from The Who, who has proven to be a self-revealed prevaricator of the highest order.
"

Hint, Hint " Who had a Daughter who attended ASR and also ran away once.