Challenge for Wilderness Supporters

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-21 13:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The Who is an absolute idiot."

Yes, but he's so much fun to play with. :grin:

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-21 13:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Who would the burden of proof, so to speak, fall on?  If these people are claiming what a success their program is and how effective it is wouldn't it be their responsibility to back that up with something?  Why is it that whenever we ask you to back up your claim that they're effective all you can do is turn it around on us instead of actually answering the question?"

My opinion would be ?independent studies?.   The individual schools can do studies but they would be perceived, by the skeptics, as biased.  The schools could hire someone to do studies but the skeptics would claim bias due to the monies exchanging hands.
So the studies would have to be performed by an independent and neutral entity with no bias.

ASR opened their doors and had people come in to do studies and report on their findings independently and the school provided no funding, but still many here discard the results out of hand.  So, I am not sure what the answer is, if the government agency conducted it one could argue the results are tainted because they are pushing for regulation.  If the AMA conducts it others would argue that they are looking to get a bigger piece of the industry and create standards etc. so their results are biased.

A study would have to be designed and all parties agree to the model and procedure and then conducted openly and repeated at several different schools, with each school opening their doors.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-06-21 13:13:00, TheWho wrote:

"So 130 or so signed a request (many of whom are assistants) out of maybe 10,000 professionals who were presented with the paper but  refused to sign because they know the effectiveness of the industry.  But I do agree the 130 probably did not refer any of the kids to TBS?s.



If I wrote a letter to congress and got 1-2% of my peers to back me do you think I would make an effect?  That means 98% abstained or disagreed.



If they were my numbers, DJ, I would have kept them on my hard drive."

Who, let me stop you.  You're fabricating again.  You just made up some numbers here.  It's called "lying," Who, and it is not befitting someone who claims to be "open-minded" and looks at "all points of view."  Show the documentation to support your claim or otherwise be further tarnished by your inability to tell the truth about anything.

It's funny, though, how you attempt to impugn the credentials of these folks, many of whom are absolutely irreproachable (and you seemed to have missed that entire professional associations consisting of thousands of members also signed on and endorsed it), yet you stauchly defend unlicensed teachers with no degrees at ASR and counselors without masters degrees or any license to practice at ASR.  Why the bias?  Why are you an ASR/program shill?

You've tipped your hand many times, but this is a doozie...

So, please post your "98% of therapists disagree with the ones that signed the open letter" evidence.  Or we could go the short route this time and you can just admit you lied because if you don't you'll look even worse than you already do - if that's possible.

C'mon, Who, just clean up your act and stop lying.  You've been thoroughly had by the facts, yet you continue to lie through your teeth like a little kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

[Troll Control]

"Sponsored by:
A START:
Alliance for the Safe, Therapeutic and Appropriate use of Residential Treatment

A collaboration between
The Dept of Child & Family Studies
Louis de la Parte Florida Mental Health Institute
University of South Florida
and
Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law

Co-sponsored by:
? American Psychological Association
? American Association of Community Psychiatrists
? American Orthopsychiatric Association
? Child Welfare League of America
? Federation of Families for Children?s Mental Health
? National Alliance for the Mentally Ill
? National Mental Health Association
? ?
Growing concerns about unlicensed and unregulated residential programs are shared by
mental health professionals, program staff, parents, youth and advocates. These concerns
are described in the following statements, which are provided by a panel of individuals
representing a range of perspectives. Further details of counter-therapeutic treatment,
restricted family rights, substandard education, poor quality medical care, parental
distress and negative after-effects are provided by youth and families who have expressed
their willingness to share further information about their first-hand experiences. This
information is provided to increase awareness regarding this alarming phenomenon and
to substantiate the call for increased protections to safeguard youth and families served
by unregulated residential treatment facilities."

Take a look at some of the commentary on this site: cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm

This is what professionals around the country and the world say about the programs.  Read up, Who.  Educate yourself as you say you strive to.

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-21 14:40:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"

On 2006-06-21 13:13:00, TheWho wrote:


"So 130 or so signed a request (many of whom are assistants) out of maybe 10,000 professionals who were presented with the paper but  refused to sign because they know the effectiveness of the industry.  But I do agree the 130 probably did not refer any of the kids to TBS?s.





If I wrote a letter to congress and got 1-2% of my peers to back me do you think I would make an effect?  That means 98% abstained or disagreed.





If they were my numbers, DJ, I would have kept them on my hard drive."

Who, let me stop you.  You're fabricating again.  You just made up some numbers here.  It's called "lying," Who, and it is not befitting someone who claims to be "open-minded" and looks at "all points of view."  Show the documentation to support your claim or otherwise be further tarnished by your inability to tell the truth about anything.



It's funny, though, how you attempt to impugn the credentials of these folks, many of whom are absolutely irreproachable (and you seemed to have missed that entire professional associations consisting of thousands of members also signed on and endorsed it), yet you stauchly defend unlicensed teachers with no degrees at ASR and counselors without masters degrees or any license to practice at ASR.  Why the bias?  Why are you an ASR/program shill?



You've tipped your hand many times, but this is a doozie...



So, please post your "98% of therapists disagree with the ones that signed the open letter" evidence.  Or we could go the short route this time and you can just admit you lied because if you don't you'll look even worse than you already do - if that's possible.



C'mon, Who, just clean up your act and stop lying.  You've been thoroughly had by the facts, yet you continue to lie through your teeth like a little kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
"

Sorry, DJ,  you seem very stressed today, I have never met anyone who is so sensitive about getting everyone to buy into their position.  If you want I will do the math for you (its something I do all the time and can do this in my sleep).  Send me the completed list of those that signed the petition or representation who signed for them.  It may not be 1-2 % it may jump to 3% or fall below 1% but if you want to sharpen our pencils I am up for it.

[TheWho]

Previous one was mine.

[TheWho]

Okay, DJ, I would like to close this out if we could.  I called several associations and ran out of time because they are closed now.  Seems like there was problems with the wording that most of the Clinical industry didn?t like and were not included in on. These were some of the reasons  the only active members they could find to sign on were:

American Psychological Association
American Association of Community Psychiatrists
American Orthopsychiatric Association
Child Welfare League of America
Federation of Families for Children?s Mental Health
National Youth Advocate Program, Inc.

Plus the 130 signatures they were able to get off the street (or over the phone).

The following refused to sign:

American Medical association (AMA)
http://www.ama-assn.org/


American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry

American Society for Adolescent Psychiatry

Research & Training Center on Children's Mental Health

The Research and Training Center for Children's Mental Health

Child and Adolescent Services Research Center

Center for Study and Prevention of Violence


These are just the ones I located over the past few hours, there are thousands who refused to sign, do you want me to continue?

Like I said, the letter I agree with, it will  lead to improving treatment for the children, which is what I stand for.  All I ask is do your homework.  The letter to congress was from a small group of people, anyone can write one.

[Anonymous]

Alright Who.  People have been asking what you do for a living and I really didn't care but I am curious now.  What DO you do that you have such an inclination and so much time to devote to this?

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-21 17:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Alright Who.  People have been asking what you do for a living and I really didn't care but I am curious now.  What DO you do that you have such an inclination and so much time to devote to this?  "

 :wstupid:  :wstupid:

[Anonymous]

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1224





Two Sides, Same Bias





The extraordinary lack of context and fairness in media coverage of youthstems from two elemental difficulties. First, the standard media assumption is that fairness is served by quoting "both sides"--but on youth issues, "both sides" frequently harbor adult biases against teenagers.





In the much-publicized debates over school programs to reduce "teen" pregnancy, for example, the press quoted "liberal" sources favoring condom handouts balanced by "conservative" sources demanding abstinence education (e.g. USA Today, 11/19/91). However, both lobbies based their arguments on the same myth--that heedless high school boys are the main cause of "teen" pregnancy--and avoided the same disturbing fact: that even if every high school boy abstained from sex or used a condom, most "teen" pregnancies would still occur.





The second difficulty is that "teenage" behavior is not separate from "adult" behavior. Such hot topics as "teen pregnancy," "teen suicide," and "youth violence" are artificial political and media inventions. In real-world environments, teenagers usually act like the adults of their family, gender, race, class, location and era, often because their behaviors occur with adults.





For example, Vital Statistics of the United States shows that white adults are twice as likely to commit suicide as black adults, and white teens are twice as likely to commit suicide as black teens. From 1940 to 1990, unwed birth rates rose 4.7 times among teenage women and 4.6 times among adult women. The FBI's 1992 Uniform Crime Reports show that men commit 88 percent of all adult violent crime; boys commit 88 percent of all juvenile violent crime.





Why are adult contexts, common to media reports on youth prior to the 1970s, only rarely cited today? Because that would prevent adolescents from serving as the latest scapegoats for problems that affect society in general.





And there is a subtler reason: the interests circulating negative images of teens want the source of malaise located within youth, where it can be "treated" by whatever solutions the publicizing interest groups profit from, rather than in unhealthy environments whose upgrading will require billions of dollars in public spending. Thus short-term political and corporate profit lies not in fixing environments, but in fixing kids.





The treatment industry's message is clear: "Our teenagers have lost their way," declares the AMA. The press has been a key element in the campaign to persuade the public that the cause of youth pregnancy, violence, suicide and drug addiction lies within the irrational psychologies and vulnerabilities of adolescents.





A standard news and documentary feature is the "troubled teen" rescued by the teamwork of "loving parents" and "get-tough" professionals. (For an example justifying the abduction of youth by "therapeutic programs," see the Los Angeles Times, 6/2/93). Despite melodramatic media splashes advertising the "success" of this program or that therapy (often based on testimonials or the promoter's own "study"), controlled, long-term research finds efforts to "cure" troubled teenagers generally ineffective.





On the other hand, the publicity campaigns for such treatments--disguised as news--have been quite successful. During the 1980s, the number of teens forced into intensive psychiatric treatment quadrupled, while adolescent commitments to drug and alcohol treatment tripled. If institution and treatment industry claims are valid, we should have seen dramatic improvements in youth behavior.





Exactly the opposite is the case. In the last five to 10 years, intense media and government attacks on various behaviors--chiefly drug abuse, violence and pregnancy--have been followed by rapidly rising problems among teenagers. Stable violence rates and rapidly declining birth rates and drug eath levels prior to 1985 have suddenly reversed: All three rose rapidly from the mid-1980s to the early 1990s. The media's unwillingness to question official policy and its failures helped make these reverses possible.

Who, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this."

 :wstupid:  :wstupid:

[Oz girl]

Positive stories about teens rarely make it into the headlines. But, believe it or not, nine in 10 teens do not get into trouble. Do we hear about those in the news?!


ABOUT BLODDY TIME!!! :nworthy:  :tup:

[TheWho]

Very compelling, thank you anon.  I will archive this article.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-22 07:33:00, TheWho wrote:

"Very compelling, thank you anon.  I will archive this article."

That's nice but I'd like to know what you think of the actual content of the piece.

And where do you work btw, that you'd have "hours" to research DJs post yesterday about the ineffectiveness of these schools?  You were on here all day yesterday.  Just wondering why you have THAT much of an interest.  It seems its a bit more than just being a parent of a former student.

[TheWho]

Why are adult contexts, common to media reports on youth prior to the 1970s, only rarely cited today? Because that would prevent adolescents from serving as the latest scapegoats for problems that affect society in general.

The adolescents have always served as scapegoats for what is going wrong in the world.  This was especially true when I was young and served to make us stronger in our convictions.

Exactly the opposite is the case. In the last five to 10 years, intense media and government attacks on various behaviors--chiefly drug abuse, violence and pregnancy--have been followed by rapidly rising problems among teenagers.

This surprised me a little that they were able to parallel and find the problems would rise after media pressure.  Makes us rethink how we address and get the messages out about drugs and substance abuse and other problems effecting the youths of today.

[Troll Control]

These are just the ones I located over the past few hours, there are thousands who refused to sign, do you want me to continue?

C'mon, Who, you're getting soooo sloppy with the lying...

I made a couple of calls myself.  I started with the top of your list, the AMA and went down to the end.  The AMA rep said they had no idea what the letter was or who ASTART was, indicating they hadn't been approached at all.

Some of the others you listed have their own position statements on private RTC's that warn against their use, like The Center for the Prevention of Violence, who are referenced in the Surgeon General's report warning against private RTC's and promoting their "blueprint" program of modalities that they endorse which include:

Number:  Program Title:
BP-001 Midwestern Prevention Project (MPP)
BP-002 Big Brothers Big Sisters of America (BBBS)
BP-003 Functional Family Therapy (FFT)
BP-005 Life Skills Training (LST)
BP-006 Multisystemic Therapy (MST)
BP-007 Nurse-Family Partnership (NFP)
BP-008 Multidimensional Treatment Foster Care (MTFC)
BP-009 Olweus Bullying Prevention Program (BPP)
BP-010 Promoting Alternative THinking Strategies (PATHS)
BP-011 The Incredible Years: Parent, Teacher and Child Training Series (IYS)
BP-012 Project Towards No Drug Abuse (Project TND)

You are so full of bologna and got busted out yet again for blatantly prevaricating.

Notice that one of the very organizations that you claimed "refused to sign" the letter to Congress has actually made it's position statement on the issue which includes avoidance of the programs you promote and urges the use of effective techniques like Functional Family Therapy, as indicated ion the Surgeon General's report on adolescent treatment.  It took me all of 5 minutes to catch you in another Whopper.

Who, you are one of the full-of-shittest people I've ever come across.  You also have no shame about lying through your teeth about ANY issue.  Nice job again.  Maybe you should change your login to The Fool or The Liar.