Author Topic: Wilderness program effectiveness  (Read 20291 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Wilderness program effectiveness
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2006, 10:53:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-08 19:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Google isn't the best source.  Try D.C. Schools, Chicago, New Orleans and Miami.



"


Or try the schools where the kids were taken from, that would be the most relevant.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2006, 11:16:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-08 18:55:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-08 15:16:00, wild fig wrote:


"Every year, more kids die in our local public schools than all of the TBS, Wilderness Programs and Boot Camps combined... throughout the entire country.  Bad food, bad plumbing, inadequate heating and cooling, filth, and rampant crime are facts of everyday life in America's Public Schools.  The world (especially after school)is not a safe place.  My son feels more equipped to cope with the world after having gone to a Wilderness Program. He would go again- "




Your account of the public school system is completely false. Do a Google search on kids dying in public schools and you find little except articles about Columbine. In fact, I was unable to locate any news stories about deaths in US public schools in 2005 or 2006.



You certainly have a negative, and inaccurate view of the world."


BINGO!!! YOU GOT IT!!!
Since you didn't find anything about deaths in public schools in 2005, there must not have been any.  Sort of seems like if you didn't find anything positive about something it couldn't be good,  
Funny thing though is here if someone who could only find good or neutral and nothing negative thought the deal was probably good, they are told they didn't look enough.  What is it in this case?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2006, 11:19:00 PM »
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On 2006-06-08 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-08 11:41:00, Anonymous wrote:


and you won't even look at anything that says anything positive?



If you'd give me a fucking link to look at I'd be happy to.  If you're just gonna continue to tell me that they've already been posted I won't.




Quote
as for confrontational therapy being inherently dangerous, what does that have to do with the price of frankfurters?"




It's OK.  I didn't really expect you to get it.  "


did you already try the following, already-posted link? http://www.wilderdom.com/pdf/Hans2000Ad ... alysis.pdf
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2006, 12:55:00 AM »
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On 2006-06-08 15:16:00, wild fig wrote:

"Every year, more kids die in our local public schools than all of the TBS, Wilderness Programs and Boot Camps combined...  "


Fig,
Don't be a fear mongerer.
Where might one find those statistics?
1 in 1,000,000 homicides/suicides in public schools.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 945#182369

At $5000+ per month for an isolation bubble to protect kids from the risks out here in the real world, there should be no deaths in programs. And we know that is not the case.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2006, 12:56:00 AM »
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BINGO!!! YOU GOT IT!!!
Since you didn't find anything about deaths in public schools in 2005, there must not have been any. Sort of seems like if you didn't find anything positive about something it couldn't be good,
Funny thing though is here if someone who could only find good or neutral and nothing negative thought the deal was probably good, they are told they didn't look enough. What is it in this case?

I honestly don't understand what you are getting at.

I'm just sensitive when people thoughtlessly toss out the media myths of the day like rampant youth crime and our public schools being in a crisis. These views are simply not true.

You guys can argue about your studies all you want. I've been conducting studies for over 20 years and so know the limitations on them. They don't do much for me. I'll take common sense, any day.

Common sense tells me that many wilderness programs are unregulated and unsupervised. There are many media reports of bad things that go on in them. There is pretty much no way to tell the good programs from the bad. So, you are rolling dice. And for the kid out there in the middle of nowhere, there is no protection at all from even one bad counselor in an otherwise 'good' program. So there is a risk. If this is my kid, I'd rather not roll the dice with his well being.

And that is just addressing the safety of the program. Whether the program actually has any benefit is another matter. The one-size-fits all approach doesn't work for me. I read the programs websites and there is no way in hell you can convince me they can help with ADHD or Dyslexia or any other biologically based diagnosis. These guys claim they can cure anything. That's just stupid and flies in the face of common sense. They claim they can help with depression. They don't even distinguish clinical from situational. Some forms of depression are biologically based.

Can wilderness experience be a good thing? Sure it can. I went on an Outward Bound style program and loved it. Was it useful? Yes. Was it life changing? Not really.

But that's not the kind of thing we're objecting to here. We are objecting to escorting teens into situations against their will where they may or may not be safe, where they may or may not be 'helped' and just hoping for the best. If it works, great, you get another testimonial. If it doesn't work, blame the kid. The program is still good because it helped someone else.

Sorry, that kind of treatment is just irresponsible. You are playing Russian Roulette with someone's life and mental well-being and worse you are playing it against that person's will. That is just wrong.
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Offline michelle sutton memorial

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« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2006, 01:07:00 AM »
One of my father's friends owns a Teen Help wilderness program. The irony of reading this board is that the program supporters believe the posters on this site aren't concerned with the welfare of the children. This is the only reason why they post here is because they know first hand of the negative effects of unnecesary incarceration. I know my father's friend and he could care less about teens, he is a business man. He is in it for the money, and nothing else. I hope parents understand an important fact, this man laughs at you at our dinner engagements. He can't believe why you spend so much money on a glorified summer camp. He laughs about how he gives his staff new age names like 'Forest' and 'Soaring Eagle', gives them the title of life counselor, and how the parents eat it up. Those of us who have seen the industry from the inside in some way know the truth, you are being scammed in most cases. This industry attracts many unscrupulous types because it is completely unregulated. A pedophile, a convicted pedophile, could start a camp. Think about that long and hard before you send your child away. There is lots of money to be had, and the gold rush is on. These modern day forty-niners don't care about the kids. If they did they would leave the job for the professionals -- the people who dedicate their life to helping teens -- not the bottom dollar. Instead these unregulated fly-by-night teen help camps plaster the internet with their websites. They pay thousands of dollars in free tuition and cash to other parents and random people to refer kids to their facility. They use high pressure sales tactics and fear mongering to seal the deal. As I write this I recall the image of this overweight, middle age man laughing with his mouth full, boasting to my father at how much money he is making. It made me sick, and I hope the parents here blindly supporting programs in general recognize the irony of their position. Fornits is the only forum I've read that contains actual truth about these programs. Keep up the good fight!

VERY WELL SAID from the poster who's father's friend has spoken the truth from the inside out.

Those who had a great experience in a lucrative, unregulated wilderness program were lucky!
 
These programs are only as good as the people selling them...........and they charge WAY too much for lentils, peas, rice, oatmeal and raisins.  Wilderness programs are known for hiring transient, poorly trained, underqualified counselors to be out in the middle of the boonies with children who aren't allowed to talk to their parents.  By the time the parents receive their first letter (which is read first), it can be too late.
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Program is Only as good as the people selling it!  \"Buyer Beware\"

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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2006, 01:13:00 AM »
In addition to the inherent risks and deaths associated with programs, one would be wise to understand the methods employed in 'changing' their childs behavior.

How BM in programs works:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 25&forum=9

Against the aggregation of distressed teens:
http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/Vol-15-3/Youth.html
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#61673

More ills of institutional treatment in this thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#61673

ACAPN Declaration
http://www.teenliberty.org/ACAPN.htm
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2006, 07:58:00 AM »
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Those of us who have seen the industry from the inside in some way know the truth, you are being scammed in most cases. This industry attracts many unscrupulous types because it is completely unregulated.


Ma'am, you hit it right on the head.  People who know the business don't need to speculate or prosletyze.  We already know the unscrupulous people who are in this business - we know them personally and are well aware of their world views.

I don't need to hear someone like The Who say "Maybe they did it because..."  I know why they do what they do and how they do it.  More and more ex-staff are speaking up as well.  It's frustrating sometimes to see people who are so painfully unaware regurgitating the rote statements that we know are the party line of the programs and that have absolutely no bearing on reality.

95% of the "customers" of these programs have no clue whatsoever of what really happens inside these facilities or the thinking behind it.

Thanks for the reality check about the unscrupulous, uncaring men and women behind these programs.
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2006, 08:14:00 AM »
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On 2006-06-08 14:23:00, TheWho wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-08 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:


"The Who, I found this website more helpful





North Carolina Governor's Advocacy Council for Person's With Disabilities (GACPD--Newsletters





The DANET TEAM: (death/abuse/neglect/exploitation team)





The DANET team responds to complaints, and conducted a through investigation of the SUWS of Carolina Wilderness program; finding the following:


  The program was not licensed


  IN FACT, the State's Division of Facility Services (DFS) had never heard of the camp.


  The camp had minimal accomodations: inadequate sleeping quarters, inadequate food, inadequate hygeine supplies.





SUWS ONLY responded to DFS demand to bring the facility up to licensing standards AFTER SUWS issued a closure letter. Only then, did SUWS apply for licensing.





DFS and GACPD continue to monitor this facility.





This newletter should be of more interest to potential "CLIENTS" than a bunch of "testimonials" wouldn't you think?





"




Yes, actually I heard all about it.  They have a copy hanging in their ?Family Hall? area, they got a little chuckle from it.  The governors office was a little red faced with SUWS response.  The people who conducted the visit were new and unaware of Wilderness programs.



They got written up for:



had minimal accomodations: inadequate sleeping quarters, inadequate food, inadequate hygeine supplies



The accomidations are the Blue ridge mountains of North Carolina, its called a Wilderness Program!!! That?s where they sleep so the governor is calling his state inadequate, inadequate food,  They carry all their food with them and yes deodorant is in short supply.  It was embarrassing  that this is all they found and SUWS purchased this land and buildings from the Boy Scouts of America.



They were not closed on the spot for not having a license, so it was not that critical.  How many of us would have drivers licenses if we were not forced to have one, does it make us better drivers?



So to bring it up to standards they completely renovated one of the old boy scout buildings, put a nice bed, plumbing,deoderant and air conditioner in it for visiting inspectors to sleep in when and if they come back.  Problem solved.



But in all fairness I would not base my decision on web site testimonials, alone, it is a start but one should dig a little deeper and maybe ask to speak with some former parents etc.

"


Blather, rinse, repeat.

Who, you fell for Aspen Education Group hook, line and sinker.  I'm sure they all enjoyed separating you from your money.  Not only are you a sucker, they get free advertising from you, too.  They gotta be laughing all the way to the bank...
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2006, 09:36:00 AM »
Who: some parents give "nice little testimonials" about WWASPTranquility Bay too, you know.
And some give these "tesitmonials" about many other abusive facilities...even wilderness programs where children actually were eyewitnesses to one of their fellow-campers dying right before their eyes due to the neglect and lack of training of the field instructors.
You can not EXPLAIN this away.

You may be able to CHUCKLE about the neglect of children; but there is no humor in the fact that children are neglected and die in these wilderness programs. NO HUMOR WHATSOEVER.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2006, 10:21:00 AM »
I think that the great shame of it all is that the idea of Wilderness camps or outward bound programmes for older kids and teenagers is a good one in theory. It could do great things for kids and not just troubled kids.

When i was a recent uni grad (2000) I did the year off to do the back pack thing and worked in one of your American summer camps. Aside from the odd bout of home sickness the kids seemed to have a great time & be forever engaged in some kind of fun activity. They were too busy to get in trouble & the staff were mostly enthusiastic & idealistic 20 somethings who liked kids or wanted to see the world or both. The approach was about giving them a good time not punishment & it was a tradition that I always thought had a positive impact on kids.

With strict regulation & state govts to took duty of care laws seriously, & a culture which is not about being punitive but encouraging teenagers to try new things and push themselves this could be a really positive industry. What is so tragic is that most of the websites advertising these programmes (even the ones that look quite professional and safe) seem to talk about changing the way kids behave and think and in most cases this seems to involve the idea that kids are bad an so deserve to be stripped of all that they enjoy and then when they conform they can "earn" these rights back. Why emphasise a culture of treating kids as if they are irredeemable criminals when they are just young and bored and trying to figure out who they are and what they want out of life.

Why has no one just made Wilderness programmes about giving teenagers and their parents a break from each other & the stresses that are trying everybodies patience & encouraging the kids to have some fun & learn some new skills?
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2006, 10:32:00 AM »
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On 2006-06-09 07:21:00, Pls help wrote:

"I think that the great shame of it all is that the idea of Wilderness camps or outward bound programmes for older kids and teenagers is a good one in theory. It could do great things for kids and not just troubled kids.



When i was a recent uni grad (2000) I did the year off to do the back pack thing and worked in one of your American summer camps. Aside from the odd bout of home sickness the kids seemed to have a great time & be forever engaged in some kind of fun activity. They were too busy to get in trouble & the staff were mostly enthusiastic & idealistic 20 somethings who liked kids or wanted to see the world or both. The approach was about giving them a good time not punishment & it was a tradition that I always thought had a positive impact on kids.



With strict regulation & state govts to took duty of care laws seriously, & a culture which is not about being punitive but encouraging teenagers to try new things and push themselves this could be a really positive industry. What is so tragic is that most of the websites advertising these programmes (even the ones that look quite professional and safe) seem to talk about changing the way kids behave and think and in most cases this seems to involve the idea that kids are bad an so deserve to be stripped of all that they enjoy and then when they conform they can "earn" these rights back. Why emphasise a culture of treating kids as if they are irredeemable criminals when they are just young and bored and trying to figure out who they are and what they want out of life.



Why has no one just made Wilderness programmes about giving teenagers and their parents a break from each other & the stresses that are trying everybodies patience & encouraging the kids to have some fun & learn some new skills?









"


Good point ?Pls Help?.  I think many of the wilderness programs are just that, hiking in the woods and staying out of trouble with counselors who like kids.  But they are marketing to parents who are also looking to remove their kids from an unpleasant environment and get them back on track .  Many kids have a really good experience.  Like I have heard here many times ?Same place different packaging?
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2006, 10:33:00 AM »
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Who: some parents give "nice little testimonials" about WWASPTranquility Bay too, you know.
And some give these "tesitmonials" about many other abusive facilities...even wilderness programs where children actually were eyewitnesses to one of their fellow-campers dying right before their eyes due to the neglect and lack of training of the field instructors.
You can not EXPLAIN this away.

Explain what away?

People give testimonials about abusive and non abusive places.  It will always be that way.  If you read my posts you would see that I encourage parents to not decide based on these alone and if you read some more you will also read that someone who said they would take the word of one person (an inspector) over the word of several people and decide their childs destiny based on 1 inspector.  This may have been your post, and if it was, you are preaching out of the side of your mouth.

Testimonials are the best responses out of all of them.  There are people who write in and say their kid had a horrible time and did not improve, but they are not going to post them its bad for business.  There are very few people in business who would do this and parents know this.  But it is also important to show your success stories


Quote
You may be able to CHUCKLE about the neglect of children; but there is no humor in the fact that children are neglected and die in these wilderness programs. NO HUMOR WHATSOEVER.


Again, read the posts, I don?t take humor in kids being abused; you are mixing up your posts.
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Offline Anonymous

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2006, 10:46:00 AM »
2002 Mar- L. Jay Mitchell (Founder of Alldrege Academy) has thought deeply about the nature of human beings, and has developed ways to impact children based on principles that he has formulated about human nature. Not bad for an attorney, which was his profession before he helped found the SUWS program in the early 1980s, and more recently, Alldredge Academy.


Some first-hand experiences
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?forum=9&topic=1047
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