Scary Larry back on campus!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jesus H Christ]

In a way these guys are just victims of the system.

OUCH.  Yes, all too true, I absolutely agree that they are.  But...  that's also a little like saying the guys just couldn't help it.  It's one thing to participate in some abusive "seminaring," and I don't want to belittle that by any means.  But the mere physicality of wriggling your dick on someone else's body, let alone in it, crosses from the gray into the absolutely black area of culpability, as far as I'm concerned.

A line needs to be drawn somewhere.

There are actually some very clear lines drawn by the legal system in this country.

 Yes but we are talking statutory here not rape by force.  When I was 19 I had consensual sex with a girl that was 17.   In the state that occurred in that was statutory rape.  The age difference between RT and SF was not that much greater.  I think the real problem is the violation of trust that should exist between pedagogue and ped.  For example the relationship between JG and AVH violated no law.  Was it ethical?
I think the problem is you have/had a culture where the norms of behaviour in the general society are held in abeyance for those in power.  Could you imagine Joes rants in a public school?   I think you have a culture where there are signals that say it is ok to cross those kinds of boundaries. I the case of LD there is evidence that the folks in power knew lines were crossed and did nothing.  What kind of message does that send?  If I was LD I would say "green light"  
  It is a sort of nature or nurture question.  I think it is a little of both.

[Ursus]

In a way these guys are just victims of the system.

OUCH.  Yes, all too true, I absolutely agree that they are.  But...  that's also a little like saying the guys just couldn't help it.  It's one thing to participate in some abusive "seminaring," and I don't want to belittle that by any means.  But the mere physicality of wriggling your dick on someone else's body, let alone in it, crosses from the gray into the absolutely black area of culpability, as far as I'm concerned.

A line needs to be drawn somewhere.

There are actually some very clear lines drawn by the legal system in this country.

 Yes but we are talking statutory here not rape by force.  When I was 19 I have consensual sex with a girl that was 17.   In the state that occurred in that was statutory rape.  The age difference between RT and SF was not that much greater.  I think the real problem is the violation of trust that should exist between pedagogue and ped.  For example the relationship between JG and AVH violated no law.  Was it ethical?
I think the problem is you have/had a culture where the norms of behaviour in the general society are held in abeyance for those in power.  Could you imagine Joes rants in a public school?   I think you have a culture where there are signals that say it is ok to cross those kinds of boundaries. I the case of LD there is evidence that the folks in power knew lines were crossed and did nothing.  What kind of message does that send?  If I was LD I would say "green light"  
  It is a sort of nature or nurture question.  I think it is a little of both.

The age difference was actually significantly greater.  SF was 17; Thurrell was 30, married, and his wife was expecting their first child.  I don't think you can equate that situation with consensual sex between two teenagers.

Moreover, how do you know how much "force" was used?  He planned the circumstances beforehand, he set it up with forethought and deliberation.  And by Hyde's own admission, he had attempted this a few times before. I doubt very much that this was entered willingly on the part of SF, although I doubt she knew about his previous attempts.  None of us knew.  But Hyde knew, and did nothing.

I totally agree with you re. "the violation of trust that should exist between pedagogue and ped" in the case of Joe Gauld and AVH.  She was younger than two of his children.  And a former student, not long out in the "real" world.  And he's still married to Blanche.  That situation strikes me as surreal.  I can not imagine how she can come to terms with that event in her life.  To think that he would actually write a book entitled "Character First...;"  I'm sorry, it just makes me puke.  I can't believe people still eat that stuff up.

[Jesus H Christ]

In a way these guys are just victims of the system.

OUCH.  Yes, all too true, I absolutely agree that they are.  But...  that's also a little like saying the guys just couldn't help it.  It's one thing to participate in some abusive "seminaring," and I don't want to belittle that by any means.  But the mere physicality of wriggling your dick on someone else's body, let alone in it, crosses from the gray into the absolutely black area of culpability, as far as I'm concerned.

A line needs to be drawn somewhere.

There are actually some very clear lines drawn by the legal system in this country.

 Yes but we are talking statutory here not rape by force.  When I was 19 I have consensual sex with a girl that was 17.   In the state that occurred in that was statutory rape.  The age difference between RT and SF was not that much greater.  I think the real problem is the violation of trust that should exist between pedagogue and ped.  For example the relationship between JG and AVH violated no law.  Was it ethical?
I think the problem is you have/had a culture where the norms of behaviour in the general society are held in abeyance for those in power.  Could you imagine Joes rants in a public school?   I think you have a culture where there are signals that say it is ok to cross those kinds of boundaries. I the case of LD there is evidence that the folks in power knew lines were crossed and did nothing.  What kind of message does that send?  If I was LD I would say "green light"  
  It is a sort of nature or nurture question.  I think it is a little of both.

The age difference was actually significantly greater.  SF was 17; Thurrell was 30, married, and his wife was expecting their first child.  I don't think you can equate that situation with consensual sex between two teenagers.

Moreover, how do you know how much "force" was used?  He planned the circumstances beforehand, he set it up with forethought and deliberation.  And by Hyde's own admission, he had attempted this a few times before. I doubt very much that this was entered willingly on the part of SF, although I doubt she knew about his previous attempts.  None of us knew.  But Hyde knew, and did nothing.

I totally agree with you re. "the violation of trust that should exist between pedagogue and ped" in the case of Joe Gauld and AVH.  She was younger than two of his children.  And a former student, not long out in the "real" world.  And he's still married to Blanche.  That situation strikes me as surreal.  I can not imagine how she can come to terms with that event in her life.  To think that he would actually write a book entitled "Character First...;"  I'm sorry, it just makes me puke.  I can't believe people still eat that stuff up.

  I thought he was in his early twenties.  When did Hyde ever admit anything about the affair.  I don't recall that piece.

[Jesus H Christ]

Just for the sake of equal time: have you heard an any of the stories about Marsha Milton having sex with male students?

[Anonymous]

In a way these guys are just victims of the system.

OUCH.  Yes, all too true, I absolutely agree that they are.  But...  that's also a little like saying the guys just couldn't help it.  It's one thing to participate in some abusive "seminaring," and I don't want to belittle that by any means.  But the mere physicality of wriggling your dick on someone else's body, let alone in it, crosses from the gray into the absolutely black area of culpability, as far as I'm concerned.

A line needs to be drawn somewhere.

There are actually some very clear lines drawn by the legal system in this country.

 Yes but we are talking statutory here not rape by force.  When I was 19 I have consensual sex with a girl that was 17.   In the state that occurred in that was statutory rape.  The age difference between RT and SF was not that much greater.  I think the real problem is the violation of trust that should exist between pedagogue and ped.  For example the relationship between JG and AVH violated no law.  Was it ethical?
I think the problem is you have/had a culture where the norms of behaviour in the general society are held in abeyance for those in power.  Could you imagine Joes rants in a public school?   I think you have a culture where there are signals that say it is ok to cross those kinds of boundaries. I the case of LD there is evidence that the folks in power knew lines were crossed and did nothing.  What kind of message does that send?  If I was LD I would say "green light"  
  It is a sort of nature or nurture question.  I think it is a little of both.

The age difference was actually significantly greater.  SF was 17; Thurrell was 30, married, and his wife was expecting their first child.  I don't think you can equate that situation with consensual sex between two teenagers.

Moreover, how do you know how much "force" was used?  He planned the circumstances beforehand, he set it up with forethought and deliberation.  And by Hyde's own admission, he had attempted this a few times before. I doubt very much that this was entered willingly on the part of SF, although I doubt she knew about his previous attempts.  None of us knew.  But Hyde knew, and did nothing.

I totally agree with you re. "the violation of trust that should exist between pedagogue and ped" in the case of Joe Gauld and AVH.  She was younger than two of his children.  And a former student, not long out in the "real" world.  And he's still married to Blanche.  That situation strikes me as surreal.  I can not imagine how she can come to terms with that event in her life.  To think that he would actually write a book entitled "Character First...;"  I'm sorry, it just makes me puke.  I can't believe people still eat that stuff up.

I've been only a casual reader of these postings about the astonishing pattern of misbehavior and cover-ups at Hyde.  Have these details been widely known for years, or are they just coming out now because of this website?  This pattern is truly disturbing.  What a sick, sick environment Hyde is.

[Ursus]

I thought he was in his early twenties. When did Hyde ever admit anything about the affair. I don't recall that piece.

Affair?  Please explain.  Perhaps I am missing something here.

Just for the sake of equal time: have you heard an any of the stories about Marsha Milton having sex with male students?

Just what was told us here on the forum (TD).  Not exactly my cup of tea, either.

[Anonymous]

Just for the sake of equal time: have you heard an any of the stories about Marsha Milton having sex with male students?

I can lend some insight into the Miltons' sexual orientation. It is in the summer of 1975, and Marsha Milton is my summer session group supervisor. She and I are having a drink at the water fountain near the sunken garden, alone. As she finishes and I step up to the fountain, she grabs my arm and pulls me very close ... but I'm not desperate.

And now, the curtain rises on Act 2 of the comedy --- a month or two later. It's the regular year, and my then ex-girlfriend has just run away. As I'm walking by Henry Milton, he grabs me by the arm and pulls me very close, and says, consolingly, "You know that she was using you, don't you?" I'm thinking, Ok, now I have it on good authority.

It makes me wonder whose taste for teenage boys came first: Henry's or Marsha's? The chicken or the egg?

[Ursus]

Just for the sake of equal time: have you heard an any of the stories about Marsha Milton having sex with male students?

I can lend some insight into the Miltons' sexual orientation. It is in the summer of 1975, and Marsha Milton is my summer session group supervisor. She and I are having a drink at the water fountain near the sunken garden, alone. As she finishes and I step up to the fountain, she grabs my arm and pulls me very close ... but I'm not desperate.

And now, the curtain rises on Act 2 of the comedy --- a month or two later. It's the regular year, and my then ex-girlfriend has just run away. As I'm walking by Henry Milton, he grabs me by the arm and pulls me very close, and says, consolingly, "You know that she was using you, don't you?" I'm thinking, Ok, now I have it on good authority.

It makes me wonder whose taste for teenage boys came first: Henry's or Marsha's? The chicken or the egg?

Perhaps this predatory behavior was, in fact, a tacit understanding between the two of them... perhaps not even tacit... a sickening thought... When did the Miltons start working at Hyde?  Wasn't it the summer of 1975?  Or was it the year before?  And didn't they come there based on the recommendation of another faculty member?

The Thurrell incident came to light during the summer of 1975.  Perhaps the way that shit went down sent signals as to what was and what was not okay to get away with at Hyde (i.e., just don't get caught, but green light otherwise).

[Anonymous]

Perhaps this predatory behavior was, in fact, a tacit understanding between the two of them... perhaps not even tacit... a sickening thought...

Menage a trois?

[Ursus]

Not sure, especially when it comes to juveniles.  Wouldn't rule it out, though.  

The impression I'm getting and gut feeling from memory is more that of an "open" relationship between Henry and Marsha, and by "open" I am not referring to lots of feel-good discussion.

[Anonymous]

I've been only a casual reader of these postings about the astonishing pattern of misbehavior and cover-ups at Hyde. Have these details been widely known for years, or are they just coming out now because of this website? This pattern is truly disturbing. What a sick, sick environment Hyde is.

Some people know some things.
But Hyde knows all these things.

Hyde is not honest. Truth over Harmony?

[Anonymous]

I've been only a casual reader of these postings about the astonishing pattern of misbehavior and cover-ups at Hyde. Have these details been widely known for years, or are they just coming out now because of this website? This pattern is truly disturbing. What a sick, sick environment Hyde is.

Some people know some things.
But Hyde knows all these things.

Hyde is not honest. Truth over Harmony?

  Well the truth is, we at Hyde know what is best for you.  That is the truth, not these sordid talks of personal peccadilloes of long departed faculty. You really need to examine why you are so preoccupied with this stuff and admit  that Hyde is your Higher Power.  You must surrender to your Higher Power and come to Hyde to be healed.  Otherwise your life will be meaningless struggle to find your destiny, your unique potential.  Only Hyde can help you find the Truth.  Examine your inner feelings,  look into you heart, you know it is true.

[Ursus]

Principle Number 4:  Truth

Truth is our primary guide.

Truth is the cement that holds together the foundation of the character-unique potential community.  Individuals may disagree over the nature of a higher power or argue the priority of certain values, but we all accept truth as life's ultimate guide.  Our beliefs may or may not be correct, but the truth is the truth, whether we believe it or not.  Accepting truth as "a greater power" bonds the community.

Although truth is one of the foundations of Hyde School, it is not our only value.  Blurting out the truth in every situation shows little judgment or discrimination.  We must rely on conscience to dictate what to say or not to say in a given situation.  A good rule of thumb is, When in doubt, bet on the truth.

The greatest gift we can give our children is the truth.  If we suffer from some dark secret, then our children will suffer as well.  Not knowing the truth has led many people to think the worst of themselves or their families; only the truth can set them free.

As parents and teachers, we will inevitably misperceive the truth at times; we all make mistakes.  But giving children our best perception of the truth expresses our love and concern and allows them to trust us at the deepest level.

From:  Character First:  The Hyde School Difference, pp27-28; by Joseph W. Gauld, 1993 ICS Press

[Ursus]

"Truth is our primary guide."  Pray tell, to what?

"Accepting truth as 'a greater power' bonds the community."  It would appear that Hyde is not so well bonded.

"When in doubt, bet on the truth."  I guess they don't have any doubts... about their real primary goals.

"The greatest gift we can give our children is the truth."  I can think of some gifts certain male faculty were rather fond of giving...

"Not knowing the truth has led many people to think the worst of themselves or their families..."  Yes, well, can't please everyone.  There's bound to be some fatalities along the road to greater glory.

"...only the truth can set them free."  Yeah, this was a real favorite phrase at Synanon too, a key reason for practicing and participating in The Game (their version of confrontational "therapy," aka Hyde seminars)... although I do believe it is Biblical in origin. (see below)

"{G}iving children our best perception of the truth expresses our love and concern and allows them to trust us at the deepest level."  Seems to me the only depths Hyde is really concerned about are related to what's in the paying parents' pockets.

********

What gets me is that deftly inserted amongst all the syrupy hash about Truth with a capital "T," are the proverbial ways out of a sticky situation, i.e., how to rationalize not telling the truth:

"Blurting out the truth in every situation shows little judgment or discrimination."

"As parents and teachers, we will inevitably misperceive the truth at times; we all make mistakes."

*********

Addendum:
From St John's gospel, Ch 8 v.32. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (King James version)

[Anonymous]

Son  ..... the truth is you can't handle the truth