Lawsuit?

[Deborah]

***You know for all the bluster here about the "dangers" of HLA, all the risky practices, somebody's going to get a wrong pill under the new plan, and so on, I don't hear about anyone being injured or dying.

Alledgedly, there has been one near death, several attempted suicides, several assaults, rape, inappropriate sexual relationships, and many injuries. You obviously have not followed the discussion; or have selective memory.
Because HLA is not properly licensed, this information is not available to parents who might be interested. Currently they would have to find it here. I'd say Fornits provides a useful service to discerning parents.

***Compare this to the chance that a oppositional kid who is acting out in self-destructive ways is likely hurt him or herself. Like with drugs or risky or criminal behaviors.  Not to mention the impact on future possibilities of school and work success.

Chances of death in public school-
1 in a million
Chances of death in a program-
1 in 2,300

***All over America, parents dispense meds to their kids without having medical training themselves, why shouldn't a receptionist or other non-medical person be able to learn to do the same?

Parents are not keeping track of 75-100 kids and their meds. They also have a vested interest in their child's well being, unlike an employee of a program, who may not be as careful.

***Pretty small risk compared to what the kid could be doing on the outside.

Could be, depends on the kid. There is a reason states require medical personnel to administer drugs. You won't find receptionists doling out meds in public schools.

O5, you really should use this time to educate yourself before opening your own program. What might the damages be when you allow the janitor to distribute meds and a kid dies?
BTW, what's your interest in HLA? Just that it's a CEDU spin-off?

[Nihilanthic]

Deb, please... I could make a program and do a better job than all of these my damn self if I felt like it, granted I had venture capital (or pay-for-a-year parents!)

[Deborah]

On 2006-05-05 15:37:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"Deb, please... I could make a program and do a better job than all of these my damn self if I felt like it, granted I had venture capital (or pay-for-a-year parents!) "

I'm not sure what that was in response to but... okay.

[Anonymous]

"Alledgedly"-  the key word (although it is misspelled)

[Anonymous]

Deborah says "Chances of death in a program-
1 in 2,300".  

The source of this statistic please?
 :cry2:

[Deborah]

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 945#182325
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 945#182369
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 960#182398
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 960#182415

[kid_thorazine]

although I am strongly against programs like HLA that statistic is flawed, because not only are there a lot more people in public schools than in programs but when you look at a program you are targeting a group that is more likely to commit suicide or kill another person anyway. of course you could argue that putting a whole bunch of suicidal and or violent people in a program that pisses them off and doesnt supervise them very well is a bad thing (and i would most certainly agree with you) Also kids dont live in public schools and im assuming you arent counting teen deaths that dont occur on school property in that statistic Comparing the  ammount of deaths at a public school to the amount of deaths at a residential program seems to me to be a logically flawed argument if only because the circumstances that people are under in each situation are so radically different.

[Deborah]

***of course you could argue that putting a whole bunch of suicidal and or violent people in a program that pisses them off and doesnt supervise them very well is a bad thing (and i would most certainly agree with you)

There are studies to indicate that the aggregation of distressed teens is not effective or desirable.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#190143

"Bait and Punish" is not therapy... it's manipulation, coercion, and damages trust.

One of the pitches I heard at the parent workshop was "Take a second mortgage. Borrow from grandparents. Cash in the college fund- might never use it without a program. Do what it takes, because you can't watch them 24/7. We can." They should, if that's what they're selling. For $50K a year, the risk of death and serious injury should be near zero.

It is comparing apples to oranges. I didn't set out to prove anything, just responded to someone's persistent musing that programs are safer than public schools. Having personally known 6 people who survived programs, and one who didn't, I think I'd take my chances with public school.

I'm not sure the vast majority of teens in programs are far worse off than kids in public school. Their parents perceive them to be and have the resource to warehouse them while they mature. And, it's highly doubtful that those with severe distress are going to be helped in a program. Did you meet many suicidal or violent kids that appreciated their parents for sending them there for help? Having your every thought and action laid out for criticism and punishment 24/7 is enough to cause some to feel suicidal.

[kid_thorazine]

yeah im sure that some of the people that acted out violently within the program probably did it because of being in the program, because really one thing that ive seen is that for whatever the type of brainwashing they employ at theese schools doesnt seem to work particularly well IMO its because teens  tend to be very hard headed and set in their ideals or even just have the urge to not obey atourity for the hell of it,  no mater what you do you arent going to break a lot of them, and the ones that do break have a tendecy to either becom puppets or the act out violently towards themselves or others.  Hell i know onbe girl who actually started cutting because of HLA and that is seriously fucked up.

[Troll Control]

ottowa

O5, you really should use this time to educate yourself before opening your own program. What might the damages be when you allow the janitor to distribute meds and a kid dies?
BTW, what's your interest in HLA? Just that it's a CEDU spin-off?

I'd read up on Anne before I listened to anything she has to say.  Look, she's here saying it's OK for a TBS to have no licensed counselors, no licensed teachers and no healthcare.  What does that tell you about how she values children, especially the most vulnerable among them?

This is aside from the fact that she knows absolutely nothing about HLA and is here only as a blind supporter of all programs, even ones with staff convicted of criminal child abuse and ones forced to shut down from abuse cases like CEDU (she fancies Mel Wasserman - total quack - as a mentor/guru).  She is a mentally ill person in need of some help of her own.

Don't believe me, read up on her yourself.  Even her collegues from work say she's severely disturbed and sociopathic.

[Anonymous]

Ok I don't know why I even bother but I will; I know the person you call O5 well (and no I'm not her son who for whatever reason's been insulted repeatedly here even though he's done absolutely nothing to you lunatics).  You've got so many things wrong that it has to be by design, nobody could be that incorrect by accident.

The person you call "O5"  is a good and helpful person, she has made great sacrifices to help kids in trouble. There are no "collegues" who think she's disturbed or a sociopath I would bet anything on that.

As well as who she is  you're also wrong about the posts that you think she's written.

To other posters who know her, have a look on this thread and at the times of posts they think she wrote lately: you know where she was and what she was doing when she was obstensibly posting: is't that a laugh?

She left here after somebody either a hacker or someone within the site modified some of her posts and she decided you were crooked  Let it go, maybe you dont like it but she's going on with her plans, you can't hurt her because comments on this site have no credibility except among the pain addicts that post here. You're just making yourself and your cause look bad by telling outright lies.

My main thing is to say that Deborah's "study" on deaths in public schools versus TBS deaths makes no sense at all.

The true comparison shouldn't be deaths in school, it's deaths in a whole 24 hour period, most deliquent kids are getting into the most trouble outside of school and often absent from school anyway.

So the true question should be: are there more deaths among kids in a TBS in a year, taking all hours of the day into account compared to kids who attend public school taking all hours of the day into account.

I think accidental deaths (like car accidents) should be included for informational purposes but identified in detail so that the data can be run with exclusion for these deaths also because case-by-case they may or may not be relevant.

Individual cases might be relevant if the kid was drunk, racing with the police, or so but not so relevant in a random accident like a truck overturning or something.

On the other side if the TBS had, a an example, a defective van and a kid ended up killed: then the death could be said to relate to negligence by the school. Taking the other possible side, if a kid in a TBS died from some undiagnosed and undiagnosable pre-existing condition, those circumstances would be pertinent to the relevance of that case.  

So you'd have to look at accidents pretty closely and maybe run the data both ways and make some judgment calls

What I saw in the thread Deborah posted was a lot of referring back to her own ideas and calculations (calculations which were not offered understandably as this would be tedious on a web page).  It would also  be helpful to have the link to where she claims to have gotten her raw data even if that data is incomplete for the 24 hour period that would be necessary for a valid comparison.  

As it is, the info she offers is frankly pretty amateurish and obviously meant to make the TBS industry look bad in a pretty unsophisticated way.  I don't think anybody would take it as even week proof that one in a couple of thousand kids in a TBS is dying.
 :cry2:

[Deborah]

Not her son... Her daughter? One of her ?foster kids??

***To other posters who know her, have a look on this thread and at the times of posts they think she wrote lately: you know where she was and what she was doing when she was obstensibly posting: is't that a laugh?

Let?s do that.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 480#166378
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 480#166384
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 480#166395
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 495#166404
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 495#166418
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 495#166426
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 510#166446
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 525#166470
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 525#166477
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 525#166485
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 525#166489
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 540#166513
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 540#166582
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 540#166690
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 555#166698
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 555#166707
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 555#166712
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 570#166718
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 570#166726
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 570#166739
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 585#166775
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 600#166779

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =15#190011
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =15#190189
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =30#190205
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =45#191454
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =45#191480
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =45#191489
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =45#191494
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =45#191501
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =60#191537
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =60#191790
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =60#192312

And that's a sampling. So much for her not posting here.

You?ve claimed her posts were altered several times. Provide URLs for the posts in question, and how she believes they were altered?  If I ?change? a post it will be noted at the bottom of the text?. This message edited by Deborah?

Now, to my ?study?. Before you leave the library today, look up the definition of study. I didn?t present that information as a ?study? and it was specific to a particular discussion- which I?ve already provided for you- but you?re apparently incapable of comprehending.

***So the true question should be: are there more deaths among kids in a TBS in a year, taking all hours of the day into account compared to kids who attend public school taking all hours of the day into account.

Well let?s take a look at that, shall we? Read carefully, because paying attention to detail doesn?t seem to be your strong suit.

61,297,467 children age 5-19 in 2000
http://censtats.census.gov/data/US/01000.pdf

20,976 deaths from ALL known causes A-Z, accidents/cancer/heart disease/medical complications/homicide/suicide?..and would include deaths in programs.
http://tinyurl.com/y74eeg

11 ?known? deaths in programs.
http://www.caica.org/CHILDREN%20ARE%20DYING.htm
http://www.kathymoya.com/FICA/index.htm ... rogram.htm
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/HolyTheChildren.html

Unknown number of participants. I originally used 30,000, which I think was too generous. I have read estimates of 12-15,000 pass through programs every year. So I will use 15,000.

61,297,467 / 20,976 = 1 in 2,922
15,000 / 11 = 1 in 1,364

Happy?

Even if the actual number of participants that year was 30,000 the rate of death would be 1 in 2,727.  Not nearly enough to justify the expense of such a placement.

My ?own ideas and calculations?? Examples? I cited the sources of that information. If you don?t like my thinking and calculations, produce your own and post them for scrutiny.

***As it is, the info she offers is frankly pretty amateurish and obviously meant to make the TBS industry look bad in a pretty unsophisticated way. I don't think anybody would take it as even week proof that one in a couple of thousand kids in a TBS is dying.

I make no apologies for taking every opportunity to expose the industry for what it is. Until programs are required to report deaths and injuries, we?re dependent on the media, and know that all deaths are not reported. Forget about serious injuries, amputations, chronic medical problems, rapes, inappropriate sexual contact with staff, beatings, illegal restraints,  PTSD, chronic anxiety, confusion, disorientation??
Until independent ?studies? are conducted, we have to piece together the truth. And the truth appears to be that holding teens incommunicado from the real world is not effective or desirable. People in the real world don?t live in ?therapeutic? mode 24/7, where ever thought and utterance is analyzed to death.

If the posters here are ?pain addicted?, what does that say about you? Addicted to or obsessed with arguing with the ?pain addicted?? Seriously though, what is your attraction? Do you have anything to add, other than defending O5 and a program you know nothing about?

[Troll Control]

On 2006-05-06 07:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

"ottowa

O5, you really should use this time to educate yourself before opening your own program. What might the damages be when you allow the janitor to distribute meds and a kid dies?

BTW, what's your interest in HLA? Just that it's a CEDU spin-off?

I'd read up on Anne before I listened to anything she has to say.  Look, she's here saying it's OK for a TBS to have no licensed counselors, no licensed teachers and no healthcare.  What does that tell you about how she values children, especially the most vulnerable among them?



This is aside from the fact that she knows absolutely nothing about HLA and is here only as a blind supporter of all programs, even ones with staff convicted of criminal child abuse and ones forced to shut down from abuse cases like CEDU (she fancies Mel Wasserman - total quack - as a mentor/guru).  She is a mentally ill person in need of some help of her own.



Don't believe me, read up on her yourself.  Even her collegues from work say she's severely disturbed and sociopathic."

See how sick she is?  Now she's posting as someone who "knows her."

Read her posts.  She's truly disturbed.  This little attempted whitewash isn't going to be successful in repairing her entire sick past.  Nice try, but you're past is there and you acan't can't change it because you try to hide under tha bag so now you're stuck with your own stupisity fron now on.  Too bad.  I'm certain you'd love to do retractions.

[juniper2]

Go Deborah!

[RobertBruce]

Oh wow. Mommy was getting frustrated because she's to stupid to keep up and exposed her identity to everyone, followed up by making a series of idle threats.

Now Junior the Junkie is on the scene to accomplish even less.

Should make for another good laugh at least.