Author Topic: Dr. Margaret Sanger  (Read 1660 times)

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Offline cleveland

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Dr. Margaret Sanger
« on: April 24, 2006, 08:02:00 PM »
So read this and tell me if you think it's a good thing...

http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35
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Offline Stripe

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Dr. Margaret Sanger
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2006, 09:25:00 PM »
I have to wonder ... with such a straight-forward value-neutral explanation of the coercive use of these behavior modificaiton techniques, I really have to wonder, is there  the bigger agenda here beyond forcing "positive" change for the good of one individual?

Why are these programs supported by law makers, schools, religious instituions and the general public?  Is it simply economics - putting the the almighty dollar and profits ahead of humanity?  
 
But even possibility that does not supply a rational reason for this societies continued abuse of its citizens.

I hate to sound like a conspriracy nut, but when the whole issue is presented in such a straight forward manner, how can any thinking person NOT see the inherent danger?

We are the generation that this was first used on and let see where it got most of us? Sure, I think for the most part, supporters and non-suuporters alike, we're successful now, but what price did we pay to get where we are?  A big one. This is especially true for the persons who were NOT in need of any kind of behavior modification.  And how long did it take to undo the effects of this kind of programming? 1 year? 5 years? 10? 20?
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Offline GregFL

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Dr. Margaret Sanger
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2006, 09:39:00 PM »
Yeah its good.  Dr. Singer's list has been around for years, and when I first started seriously researching just what the hell it was that I was subjected thru, her writings helped turn the light on for me.
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2006, 08:14:00 AM »
AS to Stripe's point:

First of all, I think it is amazing that our society tolerated freedom at all. For a brief shining hour, I think America did have the moral high ground, perhaps there is something to this 'greatest generation' nonsense. OK, not much tolerance of uppiddy blacks, feminazis, queers or hippies, but didn't the good guys always pull out the Bill of Rights at the dramatic moment in the movies? Wasn't it always the American soldier who would face court martial rather than betray his ideals? Didn't the evil Nazi prisoners always have their rights read to them? Weren't there high ideals, like justice, and truth, and humanity?

Remember "I Have a Dream"?

Then we had political assinations, Nixon, Vietnam and the demonization of the left. I think the dark forces are out to put the genii back in the bottle - freedom is too good for us today. You know, the streets are very clean in Singapore. Dictatorship has it's advantages. We're better off being stupid, controllable consumers of mass culture. Right?

Maybe I just have brain fever.
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Offline Johnny G

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Dr. Margaret Sanger
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2006, 10:18:00 AM »
I think it was 118 minutes of celluloid

G
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Offline Stripe

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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2006, 08:50:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-04-25 05:14:00, cleveland wrote:

"AS to Stripe's point:
 You know, the streets are very clean in Singapore. Dictatorship has it's advantages. We're better off being stupid, controllable consumers of mass culture. Right?



Maybe I just have brain fever."


I'd rather have a caning than a "braining" any day. A caning is painful,no doubt, but when it's over, it's over - except maybe for the crying and red marks of the ass-whipping.  As for the braining - it might take years to wake up from that - if you ever do.  

Now really, do you suppose this whole TC movement/war on drugs is a well thought out, planned process of social control?  Or is it more like what my brother used to do to me: wave his left hand over there to get me to look at it so he could knuckle-punch me 'cause I was paying attention to the distraction - an opportunity to mess with us while they are up to no good elsewhere.  Is it the problem or is it the distraction?

I've not read much about the history of the Nazi movement which to my knowledge the last really well planned, tactical "in your face" killing and victimization of choosen underclasses.  A successful social movement requires more than one target to work. It requires a target that can be the recipent of the abuse and a target that can be manipulated and controlled into abusing.  

How many of the persons who work in these companies really have any understanding at all of what it is they are actaully doing to their customers? Not many, is my guess. [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2006-04-25 17:52 ]
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The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline GregFL

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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2006, 09:28:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-04-25 17:50:00, Stripe wrote:



How many of the persons who work in these companies really have any understanding at all of what it is they are actaully doing to their customers? Not many, is my guess.


You know, that is an interesting point.  I don't think all but a few really understood what processes they were using.  Evan and I went to an open meeting at a well known spinoff program in Orlando,and the director (an attorney) was just clueless about the techniques he was using.  he thought that motivating was "good exercise" and he would do it himself during the meeting in a very enthusiastic (and foolish looking) way.

His predecessor had kind of inherited the location when straight pulled away, and she mixed the seed/straight techniques that she had learned from being a seed parent, but added a dash of christianity.

Most of these people are clueless drones that see the results and mimick the techniques.

They know not what they are fucking around with.

But back to our situation, I am relatively certain Art Knew.  His 'homo superior" "seed army" and fascination with Hitler youth books belie his knowledge of what he was doing.  But many these copycat program runners are mostly a bunch of fools that stumbled into something they plain don't understand.
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Offline Anonymous

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Dr. Margaret Sanger
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2006, 01:11:00 PM »
You are way off base with the Hitler Youth Crap.
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Offline Stripe

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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2006, 02:11:00 PM »
A few months back I really wanted some kind of validation about my post-Seed experience.  I wanted to know if the problems I have experienced over the years were common to others, or if perhaps, I was just a nut-ball.  Problems like sleeplessness, body pain with no apparent physical cause, depressive episodes, compulsive behavior like ordering and counting, inability to form lasting attachments with other persons, and general fearfulness.  I can honestly state that none of these problems existed before I was put into The Seed program at age 15. I was a happy, healthy, fairly well-adjusted person with friends, interests and ideas about my future.    

I have kept all of this weirdness, as much as I could, to myself. Probably it really wasn?t a secret at all to anyone who knew me or cared.  But I sure wasn?t going to make admissions or seek help because as far as I knew, the consequences would be dire? another treatment program of some kind or other.  Afterall, under current theories, there is nothing that can?t be accomplished using the 12 steps. I did seek medical help back in 1994 from a doctor I trusted. He perscribed a course of anti-depressants and talk therapy. I took the drugs but refused the talk therapy.    

Some here will say, yeah, you are just a nut ball so get over it.  But despite that, I have not been deterred in my desire to locate something ? anything, that would tell me one way or the other where I was on the spectrum of human behavior and help me understand how I got so side-tracked.

I have spent as good bit of time the past few months searching the university medical school databases of psychiatric, psychological, and addictions/treatment publications looking for articles and/or studies that would identify, measure or somehow quantify the long term effects that behavior modification programming might have on persons who, for lack of a better term, had no pre-existing behavior problems that required modification.  

But guess what ? I'm having zero luck.  I won?t say emphatically that there are no such studies ?but I am sure not finding them.

Instead what I find is a vast quantity of information that proves behavior modification techniques produce results.  So, I have only been able to confirm what we already know - this stuff works.  

Unfortunately, just as you stated Greg, more often than not the users/facillitators have no freaking idea what it is they are doing.  Nor, does it seem, that professionals in the field(physicians or lesser individuals)care or even consider the long-term effects of improper application and use of these techniques.

Obviously it's too late for so many of us 30 and 40+ year olds to have our  experience "officially" documented and the long-term effects of the treatment modality measured.  

Proof of any damage is only anecdotal at best.  And with that, the loving supporters of the TC community merely tell me that perhaps I was that way to begin with, or, in other kind words, to get over it.  Neither response though addresses the issue and both are especially galling because of the dismissive nature.  

Maybe it?s time to call the experience what it is: Torture.  

I have attached a link to some articles published by the Minnesota Medical Association.  Read through the articles.  

Certainly I am not advocating a position that lessens or belittles what happened to the victims that our society and government recognize as ?legitimate? or ?real? torture victims.  

Instead, look to the coercive acts imposed on people and the damage caused to them.
Do any of the after-affects of torture look familiar to you?  I see them described here in these pages all the time. I've lived them for years.  

http://www.cvt.org/main.php/Research/JournalArticles

On a more positive note, so many of my weird behaviors have dissipated and simply gone away once I began to understand the roots of my problems - that they started when I turned agaist myself, lied about myself to others and denied my true character so that I could get out of the Seed. I took those lies to heart and believed them for years.  I especially want to note here that Marcwordsmith's article has been a god send in that respect. I think reading that really was a turning point for me.

I only got better when I stopped believing the lies and stopped "working the program".

I credit this forum, the moderators and and all of the participants with helping me overcome these problems. The knowledge shared, the understanding, kindness, compassion and yes, even the criticism that has come my way has been a lifesaver.  

Thanks to you all.
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The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline cleveland

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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2006, 04:40:00 PM »
Stripe, my heart goes out to you - as someone who has suffered from a variety of symptoms, I know a bit what you are going through. Whether any of it is or was caused by experiences you had at the Seed, only you can answer that. Late teens is when many psychic, social, mental and behavioral disorders make themselves apparent, so it is hard to know for sure. For myself, I look at it this way - I was born with a certain pre-disposition for responding to stress in a certain way, and some of these tendencies were enhanced by my troublesome family environment, friends I chose, school, and yes, the Seed. But I was well on my way to developing some neuroses, Seed or not. In my case, I was a very sensitive person, tending to turn my feelings inward - I'd rather die than hurt another person, in most cases, so I went from being a little shy, to being depressed and anxious, to developing weird social phobias, complete with panic attacks, persistant troubling thoughts and feelings. I also hid this as best I could, because I had no tools to deal with these things, and admitting them only led to shame.

Over the years, I sought help in a variety of ways, and I read as much as I could and tried to integrate my knowledge with my behavior. Today, I think I am pretty healthy, but it has taken a lot of work, and also, some of this may just have dissipated with age.

I used to blame my parents, until I realized they had some of the same issues I had, expressed in different ways. We were not so different.

I don't blame the seed - my painful experiences there were really just a continuation of my painful experiences in high school and Junior High - wanting to be accepted by the group without ever really fitting in, trying to hide my supposed defects, including my mental ones, and desperate for love and attention which was not forthcoming. I was never hit, pushed or sexually abused, and yes, I was yelled at, shamed and my freedom was severly limited. I was not permitted full adulthood and I was led to believe that I couldn't handle it or maybe didn't deserve it. But I was complicit in this because I believed it. I accept responsibility for that - of course, I was a 19 year old who came into the program voluntarily, and so I can only speak for myself.

I also have fond thoughts of people and experiences I had at the Seed, but not without some bitterness regarding 'what might have been' if I had really been trusted to grow - perhaps there would have been some real, authentic 'tools' and friends I could have left with.

So, I just wanted to wish you well as you try to grapple with all of this - perhaps my experience is useful, but in the end, you are on your own. I just want ot voice my appreciation for your posts here, you've helped me to.

My god, now I feel like I am in group. Well, it is true, we can learn from each other...

w
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2006, 10:35:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-04-26 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"You are way off base with the Hitler Youth Crap. "


Thats possible, but it has been said he kept the books and had a fascination with the way hitler was able to manipulate the youth of his country.

I am open to correction.  Is this wrong? If so, why so?  Why did Art call it "his army" and us kids "homo superior?  Why did he make it certain that we were different and special when the years belie that fact?  

Com'n, im all ears.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2006, 10:41:00 PM »
You know Stripe, Wally, I have been an outwardly successfull person my entire adult life but I always harbored some self loathing that frankly wasn't normal or healty, and I trace it right back to my seed experience.  Thankfully I have let it go, and I just feel so much better now.
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Offline marshall

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Dr. Margaret Sanger
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2006, 02:02:00 PM »
Trick or Treatment
Teen drug programs turn curious teens into crackheads.
Article
By Maia Szalavitz


http://www.slate.com/id/2076329/
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Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'