Author Topic: So what should I do  (Read 16461 times)

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Offline The Liger

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So what should I do
« Reply #105 on: May 03, 2006, 06:13:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-03 14:45:00, TheWho wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-05-03 14:36:00, Nihilanthic wrote:


"If it was real you couldnt do a damn thing, because obviously this girl is Shadowcat? from the X-Men, or some super-secret-fuckin'-agent to be, and a TBS couldnt keep her cooped up anyway.





As I said before, call the CIA and say you got a promising new agent for them."




Ha,Ha,  perfect --



This is what I thought,  I think eventually you will see that some kids would benefit from a TBS.  I dont expect you to admit it (I have been here long enough and know better), but not all kids are placed because of smoking pot or dating the wrong guy as people are telling you here.  Many kids are truly at-risk and do very well at these places.

Time will tell."


What are you not understanding here?

You're essentially saying, "Okay, this is a fake story that would never happen, but what if it did?"  Then someone says that it doesn't matter, that situation never happens, and you say, "A-ha!  So some kids would benefit from a program!"

You're saying if A, then B.  I (and others) have said Not A.  And you are still saying, okay, Not A, but B.  It makes no sense.

How do you get from Point A to Point B?  One premise does not a conclusion make.  

You're also ignoring that the focus most people on this site have is not on what happens before the program, it's the programs themselves that are inherently bad.  People like you come on this site and say stuff like, "But what about 12-year-old drug-addicted hookers with magic powers?" to try to get everyone to sway on where they would draw the line and ignore the fact that, oh wait, we don't need to worry about that.  It would never happen.  And the programs are still abusive, 12-year-old drug-addicted hooker or not.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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So what should I do
« Reply #106 on: May 03, 2006, 06:19:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-03 15:13:00, The Liger wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-05-03 14:45:00, TheWho wrote:


"
Quote


On 2006-05-03 14:36:00, Nihilanthic wrote:



"If it was real you couldnt do a damn thing, because obviously this girl is Shadowcat? from the X-Men, or some super-secret-fuckin'-agent to be, and a TBS couldnt keep her cooped up anyway.







As I said before, call the CIA and say you got a promising new agent for them."







Ha,Ha,  perfect --





This is what I thought,  I think eventually you will see that some kids would benefit from a TBS.  I dont expect you to admit it (I have been here long enough and know better), but not all kids are placed because of smoking pot or dating the wrong guy as people are telling you here.  Many kids are truly at-risk and do very well at these places.


Time will tell."




What are you not understanding here?



You're essentially saying, "Okay, this is a fake story that would never happen, but what if it did?"  Then someone says that it doesn't matter, that situation never happens, and you say, "A-ha!  So some kids would benefit from a program!"



You're saying if A, then B.  I (and others) have said Not A.  And you are still saying, okay, Not A, but B.  It makes no sense.



How do you get from Point A to Point B?  One premise does not a conclusion make.  



You're also ignoring that the focus most people on this site have is not on what happens before the program, it's the programs themselves that are inherently bad.  People like you come on this site and say stuff like, "But what about 12-year-old drug-addicted hookers with magic powers?" to try to get everyone to sway on where they would draw the line and ignore the fact that, oh wait, we don't need to worry about that.  It would never happen.  And the programs are still abusive, 12-year-old drug-addicted hooker or not.
"


The ultimate problem with that is his continued assumption (and emotional appeal) that despite the lack of evidence for the past quarter century, some program somewhere might help one kid, so we should give ALL of them infinity more chances, instead of make them demonstrate they actually do anything good first!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline TheWho

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So what should I do
« Reply #107 on: May 03, 2006, 06:27:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-03 14:54:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"Why not enumerate and classify his arguements? It could make for a good undergraduate study for someone studying logic (or, rather, illogic, if thats a course you can take) or just general sophistry and spindoctoring.



Like, say, all of his emotional appeals about how we need to give the programs just one more chance, even though we have a 30~ year history of them so far.



Or isolation isn't isolation, because he says its therapy, even though the experts say otherwise.



Or, LGATs arent abusive, or effective, etc.



Or, emotionally laden nonsense about "BLOSSOMING" or "GROWING", etc.



"


Okay, 30 years and nobody has caught on that not one person has ever benefited from even one school, and the industry is growing.  I guess there is a logistical or statistical disconnect somewhere.  But are you sure it is my summary?
Let the masses choose
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #108 on: May 03, 2006, 06:31:00 PM »
Quote
Okay, 30 years and nobody has caught on that not one person has ever benefited from even one school, and the industry is growing. I guess there is a logistical or statistical disconnect somewhere. But are you sure it is my summary?
Let the masses choose


Right. By your logic drugs should be legal because so many people use them?

 :wstupid:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline TheWho

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So what should I do
« Reply #109 on: May 03, 2006, 07:11:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-03 15:31:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"
Quote
Okay, 30 years and nobody has caught on that not one person has ever benefited from even one school, and the industry is growing. I guess there is a logistical or statistical disconnect somewhere. But are you sure it is my summary?

Let the masses choose



Right. By your logic drugs should be legal because so many people use them?



 :wstupid: "

I would not want to legalize all drugs,no.  But people do benefit from them, others do not.  Its your logic that says all must benefit or all must not, not mine[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-03 16:19 ]
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Offline The Liger

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So what should I do
« Reply #110 on: May 03, 2006, 07:18:00 PM »
I'm not sure anyone benefits from using illegal drugs, although I don't doubt that some come away unharmed, or even more mature.  I would say that this is IN SPITE OF drug use, and not BECAUSE OF drug use.

Anyway, we're talking about apples and oranges.

I am not sure if anyone is ever kidnapped in the middle of the night and locked in a crackhouse for 1-3 years and forced to smoke crack.  I'm sure it  :roll:  could   :roll:  happen, though.
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t\'s pretty much my favorite animal. It\'s like a lion and a tiger mixed...bred for its skills in magic.

Offline TheWho

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So what should I do
« Reply #111 on: May 03, 2006, 07:26:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-03 16:18:00, The Liger wrote:

"I'm not sure anyone benefits from using illegal drugs, although I don't doubt that some come away unharmed, or even more mature.  I would say that this is IN SPITE OF drug use, and not BECAUSE OF drug use.



Anyway, we're talking about apples and oranges.



I am not sure if anyone is ever kidnapped in the middle of the night and locked in a crackhouse for 1-3 years and forced to smoke crack.  I'm sure it  :roll:  could   :roll:  happen, though.
"


I guess that is one extreme.  But a person could attend a TBS willingly, for 12 months, doesnt have to be kidnapped for 3 years.

Some people claim smoking pot helps with their cancer, I could see legalizing this for some people,  doesnt have to be crack.  

One should try to look at both ends of the spectrum
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #112 on: May 03, 2006, 07:36:00 PM »
Quote
I guess that is one extreme. But a person could attend a TBS willingly, for 12 months, doesnt have to be kidnapped for 3 years.

Some people claim smoking pot helps with their cancer, I could see legalizing this for some people, doesnt have to be crack.

One should try to look at both ends of the spectrum


Wow, you could parry a fucking bullet with your skills of deflection there TheWho.

Too bad TBSs dont have anything to do with consent, so saying they chould choose to attend doesnt matter, becuase as it is, they dont have a choice. I also fail to see how the reward/punishment model could work if they could leave anyway.

:roll:

Funny about what happens when you look at the whole spectrum there, buddy - it seems the program are at the far end of it, and consentual residential therapy (actual therapy, not program shit) doesnt somehow justify being locked up in a program.

So, uh, whats your arguement? Because someone might choose to go to some treatment center thats consentual and they can leave at any time, that means programs are ok? Or... what?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline The Liger

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So what should I do
« Reply #113 on: May 03, 2006, 07:41:00 PM »
I'm going to try really hard not to continue this stupidity, but I just keep hearing one stupid thing after another from you.

Obviously I wasn't talking about marijuana.  

Also, "one" (Why do you talk like that, as if you have some sort of wisdom to bestow upon all of us?) should try to look at the middle of the spectrum and forget this nonsense about the extremes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
t\'s pretty much my favorite animal. It\'s like a lion and a tiger mixed...bred for its skills in magic.

Offline TheWho

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So what should I do
« Reply #114 on: May 03, 2006, 08:00:00 PM »
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Wow, you could parry a fucking bullet with your skills of deflection there TheWho.

Too bad TBSs dont have anything to do with consent, so saying they chould choose to attend doesnt matter, becuase as it is, they dont have a choice. I also fail to see how the reward/punishment model could work if they could leave anyway.

 

Funny about what happens when you look at the whole spectrum there, buddy - it seems the program are at the far end of it, and consentual residential therapy (actual therapy, not program shit) doesnt somehow justify being locked up in a program.

So, uh, whats your arguement? Because someone might choose to go to some treatment center thats consentual and they can leave at any time, that means programs are ok? Or... what?


Okay, Niles, I?ll bite, what the heck.  If you are talking strictly about one subject, say TBS?s, then they become an entire spectrum (its not a subset) or you could call it a data set or population if you like, doesn?t matter.   So one end of the spectrum may be slamming your child in a car, handcuffing them, because they smoked a cigarette in front of Aunt Judy and sending them away to a place like straight for 6 years.
At the other end of the spectrum would be a different child who chooses the option of a 14 month TBS, with no fences or restraints,because a therapists feels she is at-risk to herself or others.  If you think the distribution is normal you could insert ?Normal curve? for the word ?spectrum? (in the above paragraph) if you are more statistical than logical and it may help you.

One end of the spectrum, I feel, is not okay (personal opinion), the other end of the spectrum, I feel, is okay (again personal opinion).

I don?t judge anything by whether or not it is consensual or has fences but by the out come.  It is really the only true way to measure any process?s results.
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Offline TheWho

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So what should I do
« Reply #115 on: May 03, 2006, 08:02:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-03 16:41:00, The Liger wrote:

"I'm going to try really hard not to continue this stupidity, but I just keep hearing one stupid thing after another from you.



Obviously I wasn't talking about marijuana.  



Also, "one" (Why do you talk like that, as if you have some sort of wisdom to bestow upon all of us?) should try to look at the middle of the spectrum and forget this nonsense about the extremes.
"

You mentioned drugs I didnt, could be crack or pot, right, no one specified?  The distibution argument above may answer your question.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #116 on: May 03, 2006, 08:05:00 PM »
Ok... there are no consentual programs. They cant work consentually. Do you not know what the definition of COERSION is?

Your "spectrum" is contrived and full of shit. There is no such thing as a "14 month program with no fences" or wahtever, because
  • Actual therapy doesnt have a time stipulation, because therapy isnt a sentance or a punishment!
  • Actual therapy at a retreat with residential facilities, no coersion, and full open communication, is not a program. It doesnt apply to your spectrum
  • If such places are good, they dont somehow justify programs
  • Your verbal chaff about statistics is all just nonsense

Programs are way out in left field and most people dont use programs at all anyway. Most people handle it themselves because they know how to parent, or use outpatient therapy, not coersive behavior modification. You cant redefine a program into something its not so you can win an arguement.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Tony Robbins

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So what should I do
« Reply #117 on: May 03, 2006, 08:20:00 PM »
I can set your son straight, in CD or cassette.

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Offline CCM girl 1989

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« Reply #118 on: May 03, 2006, 08:32:00 PM »
If it's CD give me your address.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline Tony Robbins

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« Reply #119 on: May 03, 2006, 08:36:00 PM »
You might have also heard my tapes while locked up at a WWASPS facility. I hear they like to play my tapes over speakers during meals for kids and then make them write about it at night. Studies have shown, this is more effective than traditional therapy. (and more profitable for me!)

YOU CAN DO IT TOO!

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