Author Topic: Update from "former" program mom  (Read 22893 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2006, 08:52:00 PM »
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No not potentially help, you should read it: She said: "The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective."
I did read it.  The problem is that you emphasize "extrememly effective" and discard the qualifier "potentially."  

Potentially means "with a possibility of becoming actual" as in  "he is potentially dangerous" or "potentially useful."

It means, quite unequivocally, "currently isn't." You have completely changed the meaning of words in the English language to support your position.  This is an extreme fallacy in your argument.  Please re-read what you wrote for comprehension.  The author states that currently the TBS modality is ineffective by saying it could potentially be effective.  This is unambiguously stating that currently it is not effective by definition, a conclusion born out by the collected data as described in my previous post.

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That?s why it is important for people to read the study, I provided the link. Each person can come away with something different.

This is antithetical to the scientific method.  If you claim the study is valid then you claim two things: one, it is repeatable, and two, it's results are not open to interpretation, they are documented fact.  Your reasoning is fallacious.  If the study is valid it simply is not open to interpretation.

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What I see is a very clear indication that these programs are effective.

This is your opinion based on false premises.  The study itself says the opposite and the data bear out the conlcusion that there is clinically significant maldaption after TBS treatment which proves that the TBS was not effective.

Your opinion, while you are entitled to it, is factually wrong, and provably so, from the reference you yourself provided.

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This one I can not help you with, you will have to petition Colgate University for a peer review and work with them. Maybe they will back down on their conclusions.

This is simply ridiculous.  This study is posted on a research website.  Nowhere does Colgate University make any claims about the validity or conclusions of this study.  They only provided the bandwidth to post it.  If you think otherwise, provide the link where Colgate (or anyone for that matter) says that this graduate student study represents the views or opinions of the university, or anyone else for that matter.  That argument is a dead dog from the get-go.

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So which one is the ?experienced degreed professional in psychiatry? that you were asking for to make them legitimate writers , in your previous post?


As I said before neither writer can effectively claim to be an authority on the subject, however, as compared on their relative merit it is quite obvious that Ms. Szalavitz's work is in agreement with the available clinical research on adolescent treatment, while Mr. Marcus' work cites no studies or casework and provides only his opinoin based on a small sample of children for whom no follow-up testing or study was completed.  Based on relative merit, Ms. Szalavitz's work is inherently more revealing and is buttressed by several scientific studies while Mr. Marcus makes no claims of the treatment's validity and cites no relevent research.

Clearly, you have no understanding of research science and have made completely invalid conclusions based on false premises and "doctored" language.

Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are clearly wrong just as if you said 2+2=5.  You are factually incorrect and facts are not open to interpretation.  Your argument is fallacious in its entirety and therefore your conlusion is completely false.
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Offline TheWho

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2006, 09:52:00 PM »
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I did read it. The problem is that you emphasize "extrememly effective" and discard the qualifier "potentially."

Potentially means "with a possibility of becoming actual" as in "he is potentially dangerous" or "potentially useful."

Okay, I know this is tough for you, so I will go slow. Ms Shapiro stated (among many other things) that: most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective.

Which I read as the program is effective but not Extremely effective and there is more work to do.  
This is why it is important for people to read the study !!!!  How can I be any clearer !!!!

No you cant interpret the numbers (raw data), but you can come to different conclusions, people need to read and think !!!!.

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This is antithetical to the scientific method. If you claim the study is valid then you claim two things: one, it is repeatable, and two, it's results are not open to interpretation, they are documented fact. Your reasoning is fallacious. If the study is valid it simply is not open to interpretation.

This is priceless, I wish you had a log-in name !!!  No, No ,No !!!  So if I write a report I should designate one person to read it and just tell him or her to summarize it to everyone else and tell them what I mean??  Let me clear this up ---
Yes it is open to interpretation !!!  If 10 people read it they will come away with questions which will fall out into a discussion, which will eventually come to a higher level debate if the discussion(s) is not resolved.  The debate will require rules on an even higher level to determine outcome.  Its not up to me !!

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As I said before neither writer can effectively claim to be an authority on the subject, however, as compared on their relative merit it is quite obvious that Ms. Szalavitz's work is in agreement with the available clinical research on adolescent treatment, while Mr. Marcus' work cites no studies or casework and provides only his opinoin based on a small sample of children for whom no follow-up testing or study was completed.

Nice try But, Not so fast,I think you did a little back peddling, okay.  Just to refresh your memory here is what you said:
 
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As far a a pulitzer winner goes, that means nothing unless he's an experienced degreed professional in psychiatry or social work. Otherwise his observations or stories are merely his opinion, which would be basically worthless, just like the anonymous posts on this forum.

You cant have it both ways, you have to discredit both authors unless you produce the degrees (as you required), lets stay focused.

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Nowhere does Colgate University make any claims about the validity or conclusions of this study.

Exactly, so it is up to the reader to determine if they feel it is a valid study to base their decision on.  Not you or me or any one person.  If you want to challenge the study, though, you will need to contact the researcher or the University.  Like I said I don?t have time for that, but you may try if you like.

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?.You are factually incorrect and facts are not open to interpretation?..


You are right, but the study is open to interpretation, as you stated earlier. I based my conclusions on the study at hand, the facts, as I see them are the raw data, you can conclude what you will.
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Offline TheWho

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #122 on: April 29, 2006, 09:53:00 PM »
Last post was mine.
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Offline Anonymous

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #123 on: April 29, 2006, 10:05:00 PM »
So were almost all of the programmie posts in this thread, including the other registered trolls.

You're not fooling anyone.
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Offline Anonymous

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #124 on: April 29, 2006, 10:13:00 PM »
You're shot.  Your comments make no sense.  You have no grasp of either the English language or the scientific method, or basic logic for that matter.

I'm sorry, but you are just plain wrong.  No qualifiers, no insults, but just plain wrong nonetheless.

I'd suggest that if you intend to discuss these subjects that you have some kind of background or education about the subject matter.  I've read your posts and what they boil down to is your personal opinion and a single correlational study that you fail to comprehend correctly.

I see that you've taken an "intellectual flogging" by many posters here, some of whom are mere children, and that you resort to insulting them as a defense mechanism to admitting your fallacious logic.  It appears that you have no evidence to support your position, but that certainly doesn't stop you from repeating yourself quite literally hundreds of times.

Feel free to continue to opine, because the more you say, the more you erode your own position.

Cetainly you don't need to "slow down" for me (again, resorting to insults and affrontery when confronted when your untenable position is exposed).  To make a simple metaphor, you're already in the "break-down" lane.

Thank you for completely relieving yourself of any credibility.
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Offline TheWho

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #125 on: April 29, 2006, 10:32:00 PM »
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On 2006-04-29 19:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"You're shot.  Your comments make no sense.  You have no grasp of either the English language or the scientific method, or basic logic for that matter.



I'm sorry, but you are just plain wrong.  No qualifiers, no insults, but just plain wrong nonetheless.



I'd suggest that if you intend to discuss these subjects that you have some kind of background or education about the subject matter.  I've read your posts and what they boil down to is your personal opinion and a single correlational study that you fail to comprehend correctly.



I see that you've taken an "intellectual flogging" by many posters here, some of whom are mere children, and that you resort to insulting them as a defense mechanism to admitting your fallacious logic.  It appears that you have no evidence to support your position, but that certainly doesn't stop you from repeating yourself quite literally hundreds of times.



Feel free to continue to opine, because the more you say, the more you erode your own position.



Cetainly you don't need to "slow down" for me (again, resorting to insults and affrontery when confronted when your untenable position is exposed).  To make a simple metaphor, you're already in the "break-down" lane.



Thank you for completely relieving yourself of any credibility.  "

Dont feel too defeated.  You made a good run at it.  As I see it "It is what it is" Let the studies stand on their own merit, put them out for people to read and interpret as they may, I dont mind the insults as long as they get people to think, read a few of the non angry posts.  I know your frustration, I am in a hugh minority here.
Got to go....
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Offline Anonymous

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #126 on: April 29, 2006, 10:46:00 PM »
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Dont feel too defeated.  You made a good run at it.  As I see it "It is what it is" Let the studies stand on their own merit, put them out for people to read and interpret as they may, I dont mind the insults as long as they get people to think, read a few of the non angry posts.  I know your frustration, I am in a hugh minority here.

Got to go...."


Luke makes the twirling-finger-next-to-head 'is this guy crazy or what?' motion.

Could you tell me whatever you're on? Looks like some really good shit- I know guys who might want to synthesize it.
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Offline Anonymous

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #127 on: April 29, 2006, 10:49:00 PM »
Fuckin' login routines.
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Offline Troll Control

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #128 on: April 29, 2006, 10:59:00 PM »
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"As I see it.."

This is your problem.  Everything after "as I see it" is bunk.  You've been thoroughly outwitted and intellectually overmatched for the umpteenth time and all you can say is "don't feel too defeated."  How foolish.

You shouldn't be offended by any insults.  You are the first one to hurl them in every thread you insinuate yourself.  Someone insulting you is simply repaying you in kind.

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"Let the studies stand on their own merit..."

I think you misspoke again.  It's singular, as in only one study.  That's the entirety of your position.

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"Got to go..."


You're not fooling anyone.  You're not going anywhere.  You can't help yourself.
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Offline Badpuppy

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #129 on: April 29, 2006, 11:05:00 PM »
The most interesting about the Shapiro study is the fact the parents rated their kids daily hapiness at 5.6 on a scale of 7 with seven being the best rating. And at the same time on the BASC which is considered to have good reliablity and validity coeficients, the kids measure in the bottom 2 percent on the depression scale. If it was just one scale you might raise the arguement that it was a statistical anomaly. But there are four other scales INCLUDING COMMUNICATION WITH PARENTS which are similarly as low. THE PARENTS WERE TOTALLY OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE FEELINGS OF THEIR KIDS. If there is another interpretation I'd like to listen to it. The Shapiro results seem to suggest, that one reason for dysfunctional family dynamics is the parents have a distorted view of their childs emotional life.
Other factors leading to this result  might possibly be a deliberate attempt by parents to bias the results.
Cognitive dissonance, the need to align our beiefs with our actions. Because I spent all that money and took a year out of my kids life my beliefs will be adjusted to reflect the rightousness of my actions.
Oh! and there is a chance, smaller than winning the lottery, that the parent observations are a better measurement than the test results.

I wonder why the industry which is planning on doing massive questionaires never uses a control group? Could it be they know something they don't want the rest of us to know. Questionairs are being used as nothing more than slick marketing. Like 4 out of 5 dentists use Crest. Because of how sophisticated the marketing of these programs are, I do understand, without agreeing with it, how parents make the decision to place their wild ones in residential treatment. For me, its a bit like going to a car mechanic. I cannot even formulate the right questions so how do you know if you are being ripped off. Sometimes the answer is when the car has to return to the shop, along with 75% of the residentialy treat population.
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Offline Troll Control

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #130 on: April 29, 2006, 11:14:00 PM »
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Cognitive dissonance, the need to align our beiefs with our actions. Because I spent all that money and took a year out of my kids life my beliefs will be adjusted to reflect the rightousness of my actions.


Bang-on, puppy.

The rest of your comments are deadly accurate as well, but this is the crux of the phenomenon.  StrugglingParents are so heavily invested financially and emotionally that to conclude they were mistaken is tantamount to admitting they ruined their child's immediate past and squandered their future while simultaneously spending a load on a lemon.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #131 on: April 29, 2006, 11:26:00 PM »
Right. Like my first reply to the troll...

Stupid emotional nonsense to try to justify their actions and get attention.

Why are we 10 pages into this trollbait? :roll:
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Nihilanthic

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #132 on: April 29, 2006, 11:45:00 PM »
Quote

On 2006-04-29 20:28:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"
Quote


On 2006-04-29 20:26:00, Nihilanthic wrote:


"Right. Like my first reply to the troll...





Stupid emotional nonsense to try to justify their actions and get attention.





Why are we 10 pages into this trollbait? :silly:
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #133 on: April 30, 2006, 12:04:00 AM »
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On 2006-04-29 20:08:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"I farted.




I know.
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Offline Truth Searcher

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Update from "former" program mom
« Reply #134 on: April 30, 2006, 07:15:00 AM »
There is not a good way to apply scientific methods to this whole phenomenon of warehousing children.  Even with experimental/control groups, each child's individual perceived experience is so vastly different that there is no way to measure the outcomes.

And how do you "qualify" successful outcomes?  Is it academic success?  Not being drug addicted?  Being alive?  Success for our family is considered under achievement by others.

I've read the books, the studies, and viewed the whole experience first hand.  Sorry, the programs don't work.  The best outcome that I can see, is that it gives the teens a year to mature, to get away from drug heads, and possible stay alive.  I'm convinced that the costs outweigh the "benefits" even in a non-abusive, non Behavior-Mod program.  

In hindsight, it is my lowly, humble and non-professional opinion, and that these very costly programs(monetary and emotional costs) are no more effective, produce no lower recidivism rates than incarceration.  [ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-30 04:15 ][ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-30 04:18 ][ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2006-04-30 04:19 ]
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quot;The test of the morality of a society is what is does for it\'s children\"

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