Second Nature Wilderness Program

[Che Gookin]

I'm willing to go with my instincts on this subject of programs. My instincts say burn em all down.

Take your study and shove it.

Anyone got some matches?

Why dont people want to see studies done?

This was my expected response from most here on fornits.  Many here hide behind studies that haven’t been done and hope that none are done.  The thought of putting it all on the table, running a study which would show how effective these places are would essentially bring all your arguments to a halt and I think that scares most of you because that would force you to look elsewhere for the root cause of your anger (maybe inward?).

Once the studies show that 99.9% of the kids do well how could you justify (to yourself) that the school was at fault and on top of that you couldn’t blame your parents anymore for their decision to send you (sort of a double hit most of you would take).

The scarcity of studies is what keeps everyone here going.



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Effectiveness has nothing to do with it.

The deprivation of civil liberties has everything to do with it. To top it off the reports on this thread show a clear disregard for human rights as well that occur at this shitpit on a daily basis.

Fuck the studies.

Get me some gasoline and burn baby burn.

[TheWho]

fornits has had the opportunity and information to organize some data but has never done it (or more accurately never posted it) because it would show trends that are not too favorable to their position.  We would see that out of the 500 or so programs only a handful are ineffective which would blow their position that the entire industry is bad.  This is why people dont name the schools, they just make blanket statements about the industry to keep it vague.

I organized a small segment of data (suicides and Homicides) which once I posted here didnt fit their argument and have since rejected it (although to date no one could find an error in the data).

There are a reported (up to 30,000 kids) who attend these programs each year and maybe five or six come here to report problems.  Your ivy league schools get more complaints than that.

Organized data is not accepted at fornits so we wont be seeing much of it readily posted here anytime soon.

[Anonymous]

fornits has had the opportunity and information to organize some data but has never done it (or more accurately never posted it) because it would show trends that are not too favorable to their position.  We would see that out of the 500 or so programs only a handful are ineffective which would blow their position that the entire industry is bad.  This is why people dont name the schools, they just make blanket statements about the industry to keep it vague.

I organized a small segment of data (suicides and Homicides) which once I posted here didnt fit their argument and have since rejected it (although to date no one could find an error in the data).

There are a reported (up to 30,000 kids) who attend these programs each year and maybe five or six come here to report problems.  Your ivy league schools get more complaints than that.

Organized data is not accepted at fornits so we wont be seeing much of it readily posted here anytime soon.

What a cast-iron crock of shit this is. Anyone who knows anything about these places knows that this is far from the truth.

[TheWho]

fornits has had the opportunity and information to organize some data but has never done it (or more accurately never posted it) because it would show trends that are not too favorable to their position.  We would see that out of the 500 or so programs only a handful are ineffective which would blow their position that the entire industry is bad.  This is why people dont name the schools, they just make blanket statements about the industry to keep it vague.

I organized a small segment of data (suicides and Homicides) which once I posted here didnt fit their argument and have since rejected it (although to date no one could find an error in the data).

There are a reported (up to 30,000 kids) who attend these programs each year and maybe five or six come here to report problems.  Your ivy league schools get more complaints than that.

Organized data is not accepted at fornits so we wont be seeing much of it readily posted here anytime soon.

What a cast-iron crock of shit this is. Anyone who knows anything about these places knows that this is far from the truth.

Fornits has a golden opportunity to organize and collect data....number of programs, names of programs, types etc.... but has never done it or reported the results.  A simple Pareto showing the top 5 programs with complaints reported here at fornits would be a good start.

 I think we all know why (because the results would not support the position held here) and it is easier to turn a blind eye to the facts and just use the gasoline and match mentality as mentioned above.






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[Troll Control]

Fornits is a MESSAGE BOARD, dumbass.  Not an organization built to collect data.  Cripes, shut the fuck up already with your nonsense.

The INDUSTRY has had over THIRTY YEARS to provide evidence of efficacy and has provided exactly NOTHING.

TheWho, you are an asshole.  A know-nothing asshole at that.

[Anonymous]

fornits has had the opportunity and information to organize some data but has never done it (or more accurately never posted it) because it would show trends that are not too favorable to their position.  We would see that out of the 500 or so programs only a handful are ineffective which would blow their position that the entire industry is bad.  This is why people dont name the schools, they just make blanket statements about the industry to keep it vague.

I organized a small segment of data (suicides and Homicides) which once I posted here didnt fit their argument and have since rejected it (although to date no one could find an error in the data).

There are a reported (up to 30,000 kids) who attend these programs each year and maybe five or six come here to report problems.  Your ivy league schools get more complaints than that.

Organized data is not accepted at fornits so we wont be seeing much of it readily posted here anytime soon.

What a cast-iron crock of shit this is. Anyone who knows anything about these places knows that this is far from the truth.

Fornits has a golden opportunity to organize and collect data....number of programs, names of programs, types etc.... but has never done it or reported the results.  A simple Pareto showing the top 5 programs with complaints reported here at fornits would be a good start.

 I think we all know why (because the results would not support the position held here) and it is easier to turn a blind eye to the facts and just use the gasoline and match mentality as mentioned above.

So let's do it then, and no bullshit stats, Who. Why don't you start a thread and call it "Program Statistics" or something and get it started. I suspect you may be refraining from doing this for your own reasons, but what the hell, why not at least give you a chance to start the thread to take advantage of the golden opportunity, haha.

Get to it!

[Anonymous]

It is very obvious from this MESSAGE BOARD that there are very few Second Nature attendees with anything negative to say.  There is a poster purporting to be A Mom who obviously got sideways with the management (perhaps got sued for not paying her bill?) and seems to hate Mormons (could explain why little Johnny has issues) and perhaps one teen who actually attended and didn't like the harshness- probably objected to hiking off his fat.    Where are the many, many teens who went through the program, may or may not have gotten off-track again, but STILL recognize Second Nature as a valid program with a positive impact on them.  
You may get a lot of people from Straight, Benchmark, WWASP and other less reputable, and admittedly harmful programs here to report abuse, but as Who keeps pointing out, you simply aren't getting that same thing about MOST of the other programs.

[TheWho]

fornits has had the opportunity and information to organize some data but has never done it (or more accurately never posted it) because it would show trends that are not too favorable to their position.  We would see that out of the 500 or so programs only a handful are ineffective which would blow their position that the entire industry is bad.  This is why people dont name the schools, they just make blanket statements about the industry to keep it vague.

I organized a small segment of data (suicides and Homicides) which once I posted here didnt fit their argument and have since rejected it (although to date no one could find an error in the data).

There are a reported (up to 30,000 kids) who attend these programs each year and maybe five or six come here to report problems.  Your ivy league schools get more complaints than that.

Organized data is not accepted at fornits so we wont be seeing much of it readily posted here anytime soon.

What a cast-iron crock of shit this is. Anyone who knows anything about these places knows that this is far from the truth.

Fornits has a golden opportunity to organize and collect data....number of programs, names of programs, types etc.... but has never done it or reported the results.  A simple Pareto showing the top 5 programs with complaints reported here at fornits would be a good start.

 I think we all know why (because the results would not support the position held here) and it is easier to turn a blind eye to the facts and just use the gasoline and match mentality as mentioned above.

So let's do it then, and no bullshit stats, Who. Why don't you start a thread and call it "Program Statistics" or something and get it started. I suspect you may be refraining from doing this for your own reasons, but what the hell, why not at least give you a chance to start the thread to take advantage of the golden opportunity, haha.

Get to it!

That was the exact same response I got when I asked for help to pull together statistics for program deaths.  I wondered why the “MESSAGE BOARDâ€

[Troll Control]

Once data is collected and analyzed statistically by a COMPETENT PROFESSIONAL ANALYST i'm open to reviewing and discussing the results.  You, TheWho, are a dingbat, liar and wholly incompetent.  Your "data" is worth exactly dick.

Do what you did about your parenting, Who.  CONTRACT OUT the data collection and analysis.  All it takes is your money and you go on and on about how much excess cash you have, so commission and fund the study.  If you'd pay someone else to raise your child, why not pay someone else to do a study?  But your data is worthless because of your, let's say it nicely, "credibility gap."

[Lain the Odd]

Gender Specific Issues

That made me lol in particular. Their "specialization" there involved pretty much telling me, a diagnosed lifelong transsexual, "SHUT UP. YOU'RE A GUY, SINNER. STOP FUCKING WITH OUR HAPPY MORMON WORLDVIEW."

But it's not a "mean spirited camp", of course! It gave me a lot of pride and a sense of accomplishment! I totally needed a good kick in the ass for being depressed about a problem no one would touch!

oh. Wait.

Fuck the studies.

Get me some gasoline and burn baby burn.

I am curious, though, as to how you're going to burn down a desert. >.>

[TheWho]

That was the exact same response I got when I asked for help to pull together statistics for program deaths.  I wondered why the “MESSAGE BOARDâ€

[Troll Control]

Again, you lie so much here that any "data" you present must be discarded.  The source is no good, so the "data" is no good.  You simply aren't up to the task.

[Lain the Odd]

Ah, a mediocre troll reveals themselves. ^.^

[TheWho]

Again, you lie so much here that any "data" you present must be discarded.  The source is no good, so the "data" is no good.  You simply aren't up to the task.

The source of the data is fornits, so you might have a point.

[Troll Control]

Again, you lie so much here that any "data" you present must be discarded.  The source is no good, so the "data" is no good.  You simply aren't up to the task.

The source of the data is fornits, so you might have a point.

Again, dummy, fornits is a message board, not an organization of data collectors.  God, you're painfully stupid.

The source of any data is the programs themselves.  You ask why there is "no data"?  Well, because there is no mechanism for kids to report their abuse and the programs have a vested interest in keeping it out of the public's eye.

You dopes must have failed basic logic classes miserably.  PROGRAMS claim to be effective.  Therefore it is incumbent upon them to provide evidence thereof.  30 plus years and...NOTHING.