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Offline Ursus

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Daytop doesn't deserve to exist
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2007, 10:43:39 PM »
Family connections: Monsignor O'Brien's Daytop Village - Of Several Minds
Commonweal,  Dec 20, 2002  by Paul Baumann

I went for my first helicopter ride the other day. Naturally, I was apprehensive about buzzing around thousands of feet above the ground in a contraption that seemed more closely related to a lawn mower than to an aircraft. But the experience was more exhilarating than scary. For some reason, being able to take off, land, and hover like a bumblebee seemed less unnatural than being propelled through the sky in a jet. And as it happens, the purpose of my helicopter trip was equally exhilarating.

I don't recall saying more than a few words to a priest when I was growing up. My mother and father didn't know any priests personally. We never had a priest over to the house socially or in any official capacity. I was vaguely aware of the fact that my father's first cousin, William B. O'Brien, was a priest in New York. But I can only remember meeting O'Brien once or maybe twice as a child. He was a distant and formidable figure. A priest of the "old school," my father liked to say, which usually meant a tough guy who would brook little nonsense.

When I graduated from college and told my father I wanted "to write" (speaking of nonsense), he suggested I drop O'Brien a note. One of O'Brien's neighbors growing up in Tuckahoe, New York, had been Robert W. Creamer, an editor at Sports Illustrated and a highly regarded biographer of Babe Ruth. O'Brien did put me in touch with Creamer, who responded to my plaintive letter with a gruff and dismissive note. Evidently the "old school" operated in journalism as well.

That was thirty years ago, and just about my last contact with Monsignor O'Brien until he came swooping out of the sky in a helicopter like some fabled tycoon to pick me up from Westchester County Airport and whisk me off to Rhinebeck, New York. He wanted me to tag along with him on one of his regular visits to the residential treatment centers of Daytop Village, the drug rehabilitation program that he founded in 1963 and continues to run. In this instance, "old school" also means a priest who has waged a successful battle against one of the great modern scourges.

O'Brien, seventy-eight, was not flying the helicopter; he sat calmly next to the pilot, reading the New York Times (reading the letters to the editor about Peggy Steinfels's October 22 op-ed piece, as it happens). Also on board was Eugene Porcaro, an assistant district attorney in Manhattan and once an altar boy for O'Brien, and James Gilhooley, another archdiocesan priest as well as a much-published writer. We flew up the Hudson, past "Sing Sing" prison and West Point, and landed on a playing field at Daytop's facility for adolescent boys.

A stream of boys rushed out to greet O'Brien and escort us into one of the buildings where all the treatment center's young clients had assembled. O'Brien was greeted with thunderous applause, and I was beginning to feel like I was in a Bing Crosby movie. Standing before the group, O'Brien introduced each of his guests and then called on various boys to explain how they had come to Daytop and what the program, which entails extensive group therapy and a rigorously structured schedule, was intended to accomplish. He sprinkled his interrogations with wisecracks, and after each boy told his story, O'Brien hugged and thanked him.

We visited three other facilities that day; these were for adults, including one with many clients from overseas. Daytop is an international organization, with programs from China to Rome. O'Brien travels extensively, preaching the gospel that a therapeutic community, not prison, is the best way to treat drug addiction. Addiction, he believes, is a symptom of the failure of the modern family. "Drugs are an attempt at self-medication to block out the excruciating pain of family crisis," O'Brien has said. Daytop's treatment program tries to create a supportive emotional community in which people feel secure but at the same time are held strictly accountable for their behavior. Its success rate is high. More than 85 percent of those treated stay clean. Daytop has treated more than 100,000 addicts in its nearly forty years, and has close to 10,000 persons enrolled in its residential and ambulatory programs nationwide. It is widely regarded as one of the most successful programs of its kind.

"Cousin Bill" had not told me that he would call on me to speak, so I was a bit flummoxed to find myself addressing a group of recovering drug addicts. However, it is impossible not to be impressed with the sincerity and courage of Daytop's clients, and it was not hard to speak to them. Still, it was humbling. The older I get the more I have come to appreciate how difficult it is to change anything about one's habits or life. Battling addiction seems like an overwhelming challenge, and is often a life or death struggle. Yet Daytop has found a way to help people do the seemingly impossible.

At the end of each assembly, O'Brien led everyone in the recitation of the "Daytop Philosophy." "I am here because there is no refuge, / Finally, from myself," it begins. It concludes: "Here, together, I can at last appear / Clearly to myself, / Not as the giant of my dreams, / Nor the dwarf of my fears, / But as a person, part of the whole, / With my share in its purpose. / In this ground, I can take root and grow; / Not alone anymore, as in death, / But alive, to myself and to others."

It is a remarkable experience to stand in the midst of hundreds of people who, having confronted the worst in themselves and in many cases the worst this society has to offer, can profess such a faith. No wonder O'Brien likes to fly in a helicopter: he's used to defying gravity. You could call it "old school."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Anonymous

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The Truth
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2007, 08:08:02 PM »
Well Ursus you have found the true story of Daytop. The article was excellent and the truth. Please don't not be swayed by some of the post on this site. Some have still not come to terms with there issues. Daytop and Monsignor have saved millions of lives. Thank's for the Post.  :lol:
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Offline Anonymous

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Daytop doesn't deserve to exist
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2007, 11:58:56 PM »
Note the lame and misleading "85% success rate" nonsense.

This is measured by counting *only graduates*.  What it doesn't account for is that 80% of people don't complete the program and most drop out in the first few weeks.

So, the real success rate is virtually identical to that of Syanon-- 15-20%.  And this is actually the same as for... wait for it... no treatment at all!!!!!

In other words, if you just wait two years, about 15% of addicts will quit.  This group wants to stop-- so if you tell them they should stand on their head or stay in an emotionally abusive group and that's the only way to get clean, they'll do that.  The ones who aren't ready to stop will drop out...

This is why people need to learn about research and about things like the "self selection effect" of which this is but one example.  Know this and these people cannot baffle you with the bullshit.
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Offline Ursus

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Daytop doesn't deserve to exist
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2007, 09:40:56 AM »
This is most certainly true (skewed "success rates" and the contribution of self-selection).  Also, while I do not doubt that some people genuinely feel helped by the process, it is so destructive to so many that one really has to take that into account when thinking about success rates.  Is it worth saving a few, when so many are so damaged by this?  What kind of effect does this have on a person, seeing and/or participating in hurting other people like that?  And those few that are "saved," might they not have also been "saved" by some other, less exploitive, means?

This method of measuring success rates appears to be endemic to the business.  My old nemesis, Hyde School, claims 98-100% of their student body goes on to college.  What they omit from this calculation is that perhaps only 20-40% of the student body makes it through the abuse and mind-fuckery to that point, and that acceptance to college is, in some cases, depending on the campus, a prerequisite for obtaining one's diploma or certificate in the first place.  Talk about self-selection...

============================

BTW, Commonweal is "the oldest independent lay Catholic journal of opinion in the United States," hence its sympathetic position vis-a-vis Monsignor O'Brien.  Usually it is generally pretty liberal, tends to take anti-war stances, but clearly, Paul Bauman (Editor) did not attend Daytop himself.
http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/
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Offline Anonymous

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The Truth
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2007, 02:08:12 PM »
How do you define success?

I argue your point of "people who changed while at Daytop may have succeeded at some other form of treatment program." How do you know that? Also what about the hundred of thousands of people who left Daytop and at some point in the future became productive and successful individuals don’t they get any credit for that? You tend to put so much effort into trying (and by the way failing) to slander the program that you lose sight of all the good. Daytop is not for everyone, this is a fact. They never claimed to be nor do they discourage other methods or forms of treatment. Don't lose sight of the bigger picture. They try and in the majority of circumstances succeed in helping people.  

 "You can't do it alone" - Monsignor William O' Brien
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Offline Anonymous

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The Truth
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2007, 02:08:40 PM »
How do you define success?

I argue your point of "people who changed while at Daytop may have succeeded at some other form of treatment program." How do you know that? Also what about the hundred of thousands of people who left Daytop and at some point in the future became productive and successful individuals don’t they get any credit for that? You tend to put so much effort into trying (and by the way failing) to slander the program that you lose sight of all the good. Daytop is not for everyone, this is a fact. They never claimed to be nor do they discourage other methods or forms of treatment. Don't lose sight of the bigger picture. They try and in the majority of circumstances succeed in helping people.  

 "You can't do it alone" - Monsignor William O' Brien
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Offline Ursus

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2007, 04:01:52 PM »
Quote from: ""Honesty""
I argue your point of "people who changed while at Daytop may have succeeded at some other form of treatment program." How do you know that?
I don't.  At least not assuredly.  But neither does Daytop know that they are the "only" or "best answer."

Quote from: ""Honesty""
Also what about the hundred of thousands of people who left Daytop and at some point in the future became productive and successful individuals don’t they get any credit for that?
Was that due to Daytop?  Or despite it?

Quote from: ""Honesty""
You tend to put so much effort into trying (and by the way failing) to slander the program that you lose sight of all the good.
I don't think I have slandered them.  At least, not yet.  I do, however, seriously question them and their claims.  My concerns about the abuse make the alleged good seem marginal.  Perhaps even accidental.

I do not know Monsignor O'Brien and thus, unless I am convinced otherwise, I shall assume for the moment that he had the best of intentions.  But, as we all know, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Quote from: ""Honesty""
Daytop is not for everyone, this is a fact. They never claimed to be nor do they discourage other methods or forms of treatment.
What about the adolescent programs, did those kids have a choice?  Weren't there also court-ordered stays?  Please correct me if I am overstepping my self here.

Quote from: ""Honesty""
Don't lose sight of the bigger picture. They try and in the majority of circumstances succeed in helping people.

I'm trying not to lose sight of the bigger picture.  But in my book, it looks like they did more harm than good.  The bigger picture also includes spin-offs and other programs whose ideology they helped shape, whether they were aware of it or not.

And, btw, I'm glad you enjoyed the post.  I appreciated finding it as well, despite ideological differences we seem to have.
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Offline Anonymous

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Daytop doesn't deserve to exist
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2007, 06:37:13 PM »
Daytop and other TC's typically define success as complete, uninterrupted abstinence, just like 12 step programs do (although there was a time when alcohol wasn't considered a drug and you got "drinking privileges" right before you graduated the adult programs).  This is what they tell their patients = success.  If you have one slip, you have to start your abstinent day count at zero again.  

This means that if you have had ten years and shot up for one day and didn't the next day, that person is considered as "recovered" as someone who has shot up for ten years and is clean for one day, which, of course is absurd.

And, by that standard, their success rate if they count everyone who walks in the door-- as you must if you are doing honest research-- their success rates are 10-15%.  If you count only graduates, five years later you do see 80-85% abstinent, but remember, only 10-15% complete.

So, while they then go around denouncing "harm reduction" programs like needle exchange and moderate drinking, they often measure outcomes in harm reduction, not abstinence terms when they are forced by researchers to include not just graduates.  So they talk about employment, not being re-incarcerated or re-arrested and reducing drinking and drug-taking.  

And here you tend to get the classic, 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse, and 1/3 are about the same after as before.

Of course, they won't admit that they are using harm reduction outcomes when they use measures other than total, uninterrupted abstinence, but that's exactly what they are doing.
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Offline Anonymous

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ricci
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2007, 11:23:45 PM »
whatever Daytop that Ricci went to, and what it claimed to be, is irrevalent
-Ricci started Elan, which could be called Synanon Jr.
ive been doing research (being a former Elan student) and even the program vocabulary directly translates from Synanon to Elan, GENERAL MEETING, SPLIT, CONTRACTS, etc....
-Hence, Ricci went to a Synanon Based program and then got rich (or richer) by starting a new one to further abuse generations or adolescents
-I wouldnt feel that bad if he was buried alive actually, thank god he is dead and i wish the same awful fate on anyone else who does what he did, i wonder if he was buried with his money
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Daytop doesn't deserve to exist
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2009, 08:55:42 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: ""odie""
Maia Szalavitz  is forever coming up with flawed information such as that chart. Then you have the conspiracy theorists here on Fornits that follow her as if she was the second coming. Joe Ricci was never associated with Daytop Village in NY. He was at Daytop in Connecticut which is an entirely different organization. http://www.aptfoundation.org/daytop.htm
He spent a short time there then ran off. If she actually did any research as opposed to still looking for the guy in the grassy knoll she might have a shred of credibility.

Well, thanks odie, for clarifying that and providing the link.  I did check out that website, as well as APT, and it seems like it's a primarily community-based therapy source... although the Daytop portion (treating adult addictions) is based on a Therapeutic Community model, which is not at all the same thing.  

Daytop - NY, from what I gather, is also based on a TC model.  I am curious as to why APT called their adult addiction treatment program "Daytop," surely there must be some link between the two Daytops at one point early on?  

Elan School, of which Ricci was a founder of course, is based on a TC model, and truly the place has essentially zero outside community interaction save that based primarily on PR concerns.

  Daytop in CT was started by Daytop in NY. When Dave Deitch was forced to resign there was some split ups with Marathon, Concept, Gaudenzia Houses, Daytop Inc in Ct became independent from Daytop Village.  The APT Foundation took over from the Drug Dependance Unit of the CT Mental Health Center.
  Prior to my completion of treatment at Daytop in Ct with 15 months clean, I was given my Drinking Priveleges. When I graduated at 19 months I was already drinking too much. I was in Daytop from Aug 1970 until March '72.  
  I quit drinking 23 yrs ago. I got strung out again after spinal surgery but I've been clean, in recovery for nine years in NA.
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Offline Inculcated

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Re: Daytop doesn't deserve to exist
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2009, 10:13:58 PM »
They’re a prep school now? PREPARATION FOR WHAT? One might hope that at least this location is accredited. Of their four locations that Daytop shuffled me through, all but Millbrook made swiss cheese of my transcripts.
http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-ne ... k-18370-1/
• GED stands for general education diploma. Daytop encourages residents to attend GED schools for the following purpose:

1. to provide residents, who are usually school drop out an opportunity to receive general school education and to attain the basic diploma, if possible, for further educational or vocational studies and developments.

2. to help the residents to attain sense of achievement by attaining the GED diploma.  :agree:
   • Resident who stay in treatment for more than 80 days will be arranged to take the pre-test to assess their listening and reading standards. After the assessment, they will be grouped into different subject classes like maths, writing and reading, science, social studies, etc. that they will be given tutorials, lectures and assignments according to their standards.
For those who have higher capability and motivation of learning, teachers will focus on helping them to prepare the GED test.
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“A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free”  Nikos Kazantzakis

Offline SEKTO

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Re: Daytop doesn't deserve to exist
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2009, 11:40:37 AM »
DAYTOP vs. the Rasta

http://debate.uvm.edu/dreadlibrary/domenico.html

In this next case, Brown vs. Daytop Village, Inc., a Rastafarian is fighting against yet another one of Babylon’s institutions. Mr. Brown, who was convicted of the sale of a controlled substance of the third degree, had a choice between an in-patient drug treatment program and a jail sentence. Daytop Village ("Daytop" hereinafter) is a government-funded clinic that provides rehabilitation/detoxification to drug "addicts". Daytop, which rarely accepts convicted felons, admitted Mr. Brown on the condition that he would stay the duration and not cause unneeded disturbances. Mr. Brown was paroled to the custody of Daytop, but on the following day, October 30, 1991, he was expelled after a dispute over cutting his hair. The Rastafarian dreadlocks that the plaintiff wore are of religious significance. Cutting his dreadlocks would be a violation of his religion and himself.

Daytop insists that all new-coming patients cut their hair before entering the program. Their residential treatment program, "is regulated by strict conformance with uniform standards for admission, and thereafter for continued treatment in a ‘therapeutic community.’ These uniform standards were early on designed by medically supervised trial and error experimentation. They have since been maintained with a quarter century or regulatory consistency," (Noname2, 3). This change helps break psychological and physical ties to the patient’s destructive life patterns. All new patients receive the same treatment, as so to start on equal footing, it is a birth to a new, substance-free life. During the course of the patients stay, he/she can earn back, as a privilege, the rights of individuality (Nomane2, 4). This value of earning privileges is very important in the eyes of Daytop. They feel that it is part of the healing process.

With Mr. Brown’s refusal to cut his hair, Daytop had no choice but to expel him. Brown feels that Daytop discriminated against him because of his creed. Arguing that Daytop is a "place of public accommodation", Brown’s lawyer says that being a clinic for the public, Daytop has violated Brown’s constitutional rights. Under New York law, "it is an unlawful discriminatory practice for any person, being the owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent or employee of any place of public accommodation…because of the… creed… of any person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from or deny to such person any of the accommodation, advantages, facilities or privileges thereof…" (Noname2, 3). Daytop’s stance is that it is not a "place of public accommodation", but rather, "a private corporation entity whose program integrity will be damaged and undue hardship imposed should the sough after relief be granted," (Noname3, 2).

Mr. Brown, since his release from Daytop, has not "run afoul of the law" or been with the assistance of a drug-treatment program. For fear of a drug relapse or reincarceration, Brown seeks "preliminary injunction enjoining Daytop from refusing to admit him unconditionally into its drug treatment program during the pendency of the action," (Noname3, 2). This motion was denied because Plaintiff failed to demonstrate that irreparable injury was sustained by Daytop’s refusal.

Brown’s main argument is that Daytop’s refusal of his admittance is solely due to his being Rastafarian. Daytop maintains its stance on it being "medical necessity". The point of discussion now is whether Mr. Brown’s religious beliefs can be proven true in court. When questioned about his religion, Brown’s knowledge of Rastafarianism was limited. He knew of neither its history nor contemporary culture. The Plaintiff was completely unaware of the "Vow of Nazarite". This "vow" is the scripture that forbids male Rastas from cutting any body hair. Concluding, Brown had little to no knowledge of his religion, or for that fact, the matter at hand.

After his "religious inquisition", Brown rebutted with the follow, "I follow through what I know and what I believe and how I feel about it," (Noname2, 5). He recounts that he was raised a Rasta by his father who taught him "the ways". Also, he recalls having, "dialogues about the meaning of scripture, known as reasoning." Brown’s knowledge of his religion was very sparse, but if the court rejected his plea, it would be in the position of promoting religious orthodoxy. "Religion is best left between a believer and his belief," (Noname2, 5). The court sided with Daytop Village, saying that, "Daytop has met the burden of proving the regulation is based upon medical necessity, not upon discrimination based on religious belief," (Noname2, 7).
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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: Daytop doesn't deserve to exist
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2011, 02:07:38 PM »
Ya missin' me, Mark?

I'm flatered..lol

How's it goin?

Still around.. just haven t had much to contribute as of late.  Sometimes, I am inspired.. Sometimes, I am not.

Have been thinking about Elan every so often though, out of the blue.  I am still very curious about it. Ya know the feeling ya get, when you walk out of yourhouse, and either you forgot to bring something you should have, or maybe you didn t do something in the house that you should have... yeah.. for some reason my mind gets pulled back to Elan in taht regard.. and I ain t ever even been there..lol ..

I just feel like there is one other thing about Elan that I am missing.. that is important.  There is something that sets apart from all the other places. At least that is what my mind is telling me... Usually it s right about these things, and even when it isn t, there's still always something there, even if I am not sure exactly what..

Later,
Paul
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: Daytop doesn't deserve to exist
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2011, 05:21:35 PM »
To whom it may concern:

The topic of this thread is "Daytop Village."  

Please stay on topic, and refer to the rules that you agreed to as part of the registration process.

Thank you.
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