Another WWASP death

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-10 15:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-01-10 14:46:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Nobody said having a degree makes one a better person.  





Your story is illustrative of how places like SCL operate.  They advertise as a therapeutic community, but when you get down to the brass tacks, there aren't qualified people giving therapy to the kids.  They're cared for by non-professionals who receive their training from the facility.  This is problematic because these people don't have the educational background to assess the effectiveness of the "treatment" they are providing.





I'm not saying your husband isn't a good man.  On the contrary, I take your word for it that he is exactly that.  The problem arises, though, that your husband isn't properly educated to understand when a practice is ABUSIVE or HARMFUL PSYCHOLOGICALLY.  He is simply relying on the trainingg SCL provided him and his bosses' assurances that this type of treatment is what these kids actually need.





Sadly, it is widely known in the mental health community that the type of "treatment" provided by SCL doesn't work to address mental illnesses or mood disorders.  It actually exacerbates these problems.  





In my view it is incumbent upon the direct care givers to recognize that the children are done grave harm by these methodologies, but, unfortunately, they, like your husband, simply aren't equipped to make these judgements, so they just "go with the program."  In this respect, perfectly good people are complicit in the harming of these children, albeit unknowingly at times.





Therein lies the crux of the problem, not in the moral uprightness of the staff.





Remeber the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"?  Well, even the best intentioned folks are not automatically equipped to deal with the serious problems with which these kids present.  That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers."

 Lets boil this down a little:



***In my view.........That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers." *****



You mentioned that he is a nice guy, great.  But where are *your qualifications* for determining how much education or compassion a person needs for each position?  You left that out.  How well intentioned does a person need to be?  Can a person hold a PHD but dislike children?  Are they disqualified because they spent all there savings aquiring a bachelors degree and want to work their way towards a masters by working with kids or should we send that person packing and hire the PHD guy who only wants to advance his career and move on.

"

What are my qualifications for determining how much education or compassion a person needs??  This wasn't what I was asked.  I was asked what my husbands qualifications were not mine.  I never claimed to be qualified to make that judgement.  I was just stating what I felt about my husband and his desire to work with these kids.  Excuse me for even attempting to get my feelings across and to point out that not everyone that works for SCL is out to "hurt" these kids.  I just wanted to show that there are some caring people out there and that we are trying to do something to make a difference.  

I stated that I left because I disagreed with how things are done there.  That's one of the reasons I started coming to this site, to gain knowledge about what CAN be done to make the changes.

I was scared to death to even post anything because I've seen how people that don't agree with the majority on here are slammed and have their words twisted. I guess I won't put myself through it again.  I'm sorry I even tried to explain what I felt.

The one good thing that has come from my experience at SCL( and this goes for my "uneducated and unqualified" husband)is that I'm going back to school to finish my degree and he has decided to pursue his education in a counseling degree.  Maybe then he'll be given the credit he deserves.

[TheWho]

I think it's fairly obvious that I, as a child advocate, don't believe people who hate children should be working with them and that JUST because one has an education it does not necessarily follow that they are a good fit.

That did not come acrossed in your post,maybe I read too much into it, thanks for clarifying.  I feel the same way.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-01-10 15:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

I think it's fairly obvious that I, as a child advocate, don't believe people who hate children should be working with them and that JUST because one has an education it does not necessarily follow that they are a good fit.

That did not come acrossed in your post,maybe I read too much into it, thanks for clarifying.  I feel the same way."

Great.  Maybe I'm having difficulty expressing myself today...?

I probably should have logged in as well.  You and I are usually on the same page and I greatly respect your opinions in general.


Sorry for any confusion.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-01-10 15:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-01-10 15:29:00, Anonymous wrote:


"

On 2006-01-10 14:46:00, Anonymous wrote:



"Nobody said having a degree makes one a better person.  







Your story is illustrative of how places like SCL operate.  They advertise as a therapeutic community, but when you get down to the brass tacks, there aren't qualified people giving therapy to the kids.  They're cared for by non-professionals who receive their training from the facility.  This is problematic because these people don't have the educational background to assess the effectiveness of the "treatment" they are providing.







I'm not saying your husband isn't a good man.  On the contrary, I take your word for it that he is exactly that.  The problem arises, though, that your husband isn't properly educated to understand when a practice is ABUSIVE or HARMFUL PSYCHOLOGICALLY.  He is simply relying on the trainingg SCL provided him and his bosses' assurances that this type of treatment is what these kids actually need.







Sadly, it is widely known in the mental health community that the type of "treatment" provided by SCL doesn't work to address mental illnesses or mood disorders.  It actually exacerbates these problems.  







In my view it is incumbent upon the direct care givers to recognize that the children are done grave harm by these methodologies, but, unfortunately, they, like your husband, simply aren't equipped to make these judgements, so they just "go with the program."  In this respect, perfectly good people are complicit in the harming of these children, albeit unknowingly at times.







Therein lies the crux of the problem, not in the moral uprightness of the staff.







Remeber the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"?  Well, even the best intentioned folks are not automatically equipped to deal with the serious problems with which these kids present.  That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers."

 Lets boil this down a little:





***In my view.........That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers." *****





You mentioned that he is a nice guy, great.  But where are *your qualifications* for determining how much education or compassion a person needs for each position?  You left that out.  How well intentioned does a person need to be?  Can a person hold a PHD but dislike children?  Are they disqualified because they spent all there savings aquiring a bachelors degree and want to work their way towards a masters by working with kids or should we send that person packing and hire the PHD guy who only wants to advance his career and move on.


"

What are my qualifications for determining how much education or compassion a person needs??  This wasn't what I was asked.  I was asked what my husbands qualifications were not mine.  I never claimed to be qualified to make that judgement.  I was just stating what I felt about my husband and his desire to work with these kids.  Excuse me for even attempting to get my feelings across and to point out that not everyone that works for SCL is out to "hurt" these kids.  I just wanted to show that there are some caring people out there and that we are trying to do something to make a difference.  



I stated that I left because I disagreed with how things are done there.  That's one of the reasons I started coming to this site, to gain knowledge about what CAN be done to make the changes.



I was scared to death to even post anything because I've seen how people that don't agree with the majority on here are slammed and have their words twisted. I guess I won't put myself through it again.  I'm sorry I even tried to explain what I felt.



The one good thing that has come from my experience at SCL( and this goes for my "uneducated and unqualified" husband)is that I'm going back to school to finish my degree and he has decided to pursue his education in a counseling degree.  Maybe then he'll be given the credit he deserves."

Lady, nobody attacked you or your husband.  People have presented rational arguments about what the staff qualifications should be.

I personally made a point to say that I took your word for it that your hubby is a great guy who genuinely wants to help.  I myself was one of those people.  That's why I left those facilities.  My judgements as an educated professional were that no matter how much I wanted to help, I would be unable to do so within the context of an abusive BM program.

I do not view it as your husband is the problem.  I view it as the facility has a responsibility to hire the right people.  It's solely their fault that they do not have proper staff in place.  

Frankly, it seems that your sense of being attacked is not based in the reality of what anyone has said.  Everyone who has posted has said "that's great that you and your husband are wonderful people, but why does that matter when children are being abused at that facility?"  

So, settle down, make your points logically and you will be responded to in kind.  There is absolutely no rational reason for you to be afraid of anything that goes on here.  It's a message board, lady, not a panel of executioners.

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-10 16:56:00, Exit Plan wrote:

"

I was scared to death to even post anything because I've seen how people that don't agree with the majority on here are slammed and have their words twisted. I guess I won't put myself through it again. I'm sorry I even tried to explain what I felt.

You are hardly getting slammed. Getting slammed is going to a WWASP seminar facilitated by Gilcrease and being verbally humiliated and torn down emotionally in front of a hundred strangers.



If you refuse in a seminar, you get sent to the hobbit.



At least here you can simply turn off your computer.

Totalitarianism is like a specter which drinks the blood of the living and so achieves reality, while the victims go on existing as a mass of living corpses.



http://www.whitecloud.com/fight_vs_totalitarianism.htm' target='_new'>Karl Jaspers, The Fight Against Totalitarianism (1963)

"

No, both are examples of getting slammed.  You have experience in one and she has an experience in another.  They are both very real to the person getting slammed, try not to minimalize a persons experience and how it affected them.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-01-11 06:21:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-01-10 16:56:00, Exit Plan wrote:


"

I was scared to death to even post anything because I've seen how people that don't agree with the majority on here are slammed and have their words twisted. I guess I won't put myself through it again. I'm sorry I even tried to explain what I felt.

You are hardly getting slammed. Getting slammed is going to a WWASP seminar facilitated by Gilcrease and being verbally humiliated and torn down emotionally in front of a hundred strangers.





If you refuse in a seminar, you get sent to the hobbit.





At least here you can simply turn off your computer.

Totalitarianism is like a specter which drinks the blood of the living and so achieves reality, while the victims go on existing as a mass of living corpses.





http://www.whitecloud.com/fight_vs_totalitarianism.htm' target='_new'>Karl Jaspers, The Fight Against Totalitarianism (1963)

"

No, both are examples of getting slammed.  You have experience in one and she has an experience in another.  They are both very real to the person getting slammed, try not to minimalize a persons experience and how it affected them."

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.  Nobody made any comments slamming this woman.  She is unable or unwilling to accept valid criticism about SCL and their quality of staff.  She views those valid criticisms (which, by the way were clarified by the posters saying that they did not doubt the she and her husband ARE good people) as personal attacks against her and her husband.

Your statement simply isn't valid.  Did yo read the posts or are you just saying that because she FEELS attacked she WAS attacked.  If so, that just doesn't float.

[Anonymous]

No, both are examples of getting slammed. You have experience in one and she has an experience in another. They are both very real to the person getting slammed, try not to minimalize a persons experience and how it affected them.

Ah- except for the tiny detail people come here willingly and can come willingly, and I don't have the power to lock you up in isolation in disgusting conditions if you don't agree with me.  How would fornits be if kids had THAT power over you - imagine that- you you might get a small glimpse of what it's like being locked up at WWASP, obviously you have no idea judging by your comment above.

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

As for the MANDT training at SCL, I know for a fact that it happens since my husband will spend his weekend off getting his recertification.

Yup, they did things like that at Straight, too. Oh, they'd hire someone w/ a title; occasionally someone who was almost reasonably qualified, at least on paper. They'd send their peer staff to St. Pete Jr. College to get mandated pieces of paper. But the training goes out the window before the ink is dry on the certificate. When you've got special awareness and a higher calling, you can justify ANY damned thing! Anything!

The way I learned it in school (real school) the end can never justify the means because only God can be sure how anything will end.

I tend to disagree w/ my early teachers on some specific points of fact (i.e. I haven't had an imaginary friend since I was about 8. His name was Charlie) But they were very clear headed on other things.

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-10 14:36:00, Exit Plan wrote:

 Even if your husband has a good heart, the policy is equally frightening, because how can one test if someone has a good heart?

Well, there's the nut of it. Only a skilled facilitator or trainer can spot a good or bad heard. They're the only ones who have the awareness, the active, lively, all knowing, omnicient inner child. Sure, some lower level people might be right about it some of the time. But only someone who really, really "gets" the program can make such a determination.

That's the test. They only get the credentials to humor us poor, unenlightened outlanders who just don't or can't "get it".

Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted.
--Thomas Jefferson

[Anonymous]

Going to a one day training this Saturday and being a nice guy doesn't qualify someone to work in a program.  Or at least it shouldn't, but WWASP sees it otherwise.

Should a nice guy with a CPR certification be allowed to do open heart surgery?

I don't doubt your husband might be a nice guy, but let's clarify the term "qualified".  It doesn't mean having a CPR card and attending a one day training on takedowns.  I think the counselors should have Bachelor's degrees in Psychology, Behavioral Science, or Social Work which would indicate that they've had YEARS of studying the origins of behavior, successful interventions, drug addictions, sexual abuse survivors, dignified behavioral interventions, and much more.

The only WWASP qualification I seem to notice is the need to have a family connection to another staff member.

Parents with college degrees and years of parenting experience show they're giving up in a sense by sending their kids away.  They probably don't realize that their kids will be raised by people with VERY LITTLE training who are scarcely older than the kids themselves.

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-11 07:29:00, Exit Plan wrote:

"

No, both are examples of getting slammed. You have experience in one and she has an experience in another. They are both very real to the person getting slammed, try not to minimalize a persons experience and how it affected them.

I have experience in both versions of 'getting slammed', and I can tell you right now, the two aren't comparable. This is an internet forum where lively debate takes place, if you can't handle that - you would of killed yourself after a WWASP seminar. If you refuse to participate there Gilcrease would send ya to the hobbit. That's an isolation cell that is disgusting. Why lock kids up like that?



Would you come to this forum if the anti-program folks here had the power to lock you up in a tiny cell for as long as they wish - just because you don't accept their views? There'd be a lot of locked up parents, wouldn't you say? That's exactly the situation at SCL. So please, don't tell me about my own experiences. Almost all posters who have spent time here have been slammed, nobody is denying that. However, those of us who have experienced both seminars and fornits laugh at your comparison it's so off-base. What a ridiculous analogy to make.  :roll:

"The Libertarian Party is a coalition of those who hold dear the economic freedoms championed by conservatives, yet abandoned by Republicans, and the civil freedoms championed by liberals, yet abandoned by Democrats."


--Rick Root

"

I think this is what the person was refering to:

You are hardly getting slammed. Getting slammed is going to a WWASP seminar facilitated by Gilcrease and being verbally humiliated and torn down emotionally in front of a hundred strangers.

You shouldnt minimalize or try to tell someone else how they should feel.  If a person feels slammed they feel slammed.  You cant compare and say your experience was worse or better.  They may feel worse than being humiliated in front of hundred strangers, its not for us to say.
Just accept someones feelings

[TheWho]

Parents with college degrees and years of parenting experience show they're giving up in a sense by sending their kids away.

This is true.  A parent sometimes gets to the point where they feel they cant help their son or daughter anymore or protect them from the choices they are making.  They have tried everything they know and have been taught and their child and the family is still in crisis.
The only logical next step is to seek outside help, someone who can step in and help and that is where these TBS can become an asset.  It is buyer beware like anything else, research, get advice and choose a place that is safe and a good match for your family.  There are kids dieing of overdoses, aids, running away never to return also, so each choice is a risk.  The trick is which one to choose for someone you love.

[Anonymous]

You shouldnt minimalize or try to tell someone else how they should feel. If a person feels slammed they feel slammed. You cant compare and say your experience was worse or better. They may feel worse than being humiliated in front of hundred strangers, its not for us to say.
Just accept someones feelings

can you quote where this person was slammed.. i dont see it? does anyone else see it? it sounds more like an excuse to not answer the dozens of unanswerable questions posed by many people. ive seen the "stop abusing me" so im leaving shit before... nothing knew. stand up for your beliefs if you believe this program works. dont make excuses. wheres the slamming going on here?

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-11 19:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

This is true. A parent sometimes gets to the point where they feel they cant help their son or daughter anymore or protect them from the choices they are making. They have tried everything they know and have been taught and their child and the family is still in crisis.

Yes. I'd even venture to guess that damned near every parent reaches that point sometimes. Sane people love them anyway. It takes a real freak to ship them off to be denutted like a poorly behaved dog.

And I don't care if you take that personally and find it offensive. If you don't want to read things like that, well then you'll have to stick w/ Lon's site and Program approved websites. Pretty much the rest of the civilized world seems to feel the same way once they understand what we're talking about.

Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
-- Emo Phillips

_________________
Drug war POW  
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-17 22:36:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2006-01-11 19:33:00, Anonymous wrote:



This is true. A parent sometimes gets to the point where they feel they cant help their son or daughter anymore or protect them from the choices they are making. They have tried everything they know and have been taught and their child and the family is still in crisis.

Yes. I'd even venture to guess that damned near every parent reaches that point sometimes. Sane people love them anyway. It takes a real freak to ship them off to be denutted like a poorly behaved dog.



And I don't care if you take that personally and find it offensive. If you don't want to read things like that, well then you'll have to stick w/ Lon's site and Program approved websites. Pretty much the rest of the civilized world seems to feel the same way once they understand what we're talking about.

Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

-- Emo Phillips

_________________

Drug war POW  

Straight, Sarasota

`80 - `82"

What I read is the person has tried everything they know to help their child and the family is still in crisis.  I would disagree that very few families get to the point of having to ask for outside help to keep their children safe.  How does this relate to not loving your child?  If your child gets sick and you have exhausted everything you know of to help him, exhausted all your personal time at work to stay with him and he isnt getting any better or maybe getting worse, would it be unloving to seek outside help?  Would you consider this shipping him off to like a dog?