Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx

[Anonymous]

>>>Its hard to tell if a kid has stopped breathing when he is kicking, biting thrashing about. It is nice to speculate and all but that is all we are doing until the investigation is over. <<<

I haven't seen that reported in the papers. Are you speculating, were you a witness, or an apologist?

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-29 20:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

">>>Its hard to tell if a kid has stopped breathing when he is kicking, biting thrashing about. It is nice to speculate and all but that is all we are doing until the investigation is over. <<<



I haven't seen that reported in the papers. Are you speculating, were you a witness, or an apologist?

"

I am glade you got my point!!

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-29 16:22:00, Anonymous wrote:


Its hard to tell if a kid has stopped breathing when he is kicking, biting thrashing about.

That's an odd thing to say.  If he stopped breathing wouldn't that dictate that he would have stopped moving?

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-30 06:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-12-29 16:22:00, Anonymous wrote:



Its hard to tell if a kid has stopped breathing when he is kicking, biting thrashing about.

That's an odd thing to say.  If he stopped breathing wouldn't that dictate that he would have stopped moving?"

No -- Try holding your breath, you can still kick and thrash about for a few minutes or atleast sixty seconds.

[Anonymous]

Uh, if you're holding your breath are you breathing?  

The kid stopped breathing.  That fact shouldn't have escaped these 'couselors'.  Period.  If you're in intimate enough contact to be restraining the kid there is no way NOT to pick up on the fact that he stopped breathing.  I'm not saying it was premeditated murder but how fucking negligent can you possibly get?

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-30 08:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Uh, if you're holding your breath are you breathing?  



The kid stopped breathing.  That fact shouldn't have escaped these 'couselors'.  Period.  If you're in intimate enough contact to be restraining the kid there is no way NOT to pick up on the fact that he stopped breathing.  I'm not saying it was premeditated murder but how fucking negligent can you possibly get?"

With all the adrenaline going, struggling etc. I think it could happen.  I believe if the two were still it would be very noticable, I agree.  But we were not there so we really dont know.  All I am saying is that under certain circumstances I believe it is possible for the breathing to go unoticed.  We will have to leave these details to the ones who were there.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-30 08:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

With all the adrenaline going, struggling etc. I think it could happen.  I believe if the two were still it would be very noticable, I agree.

If the kid stopped breathing, which would mean he stopped struggling, why would the person doing the restraining continue to struggle with the kid?  I hear what you're saying, but strongly disagree.  No excuse for a kid dying from restraint.

[Anonymous]

It's enough of a red flag to keep all but the most ignorant parents away. Beware of murderous programs!

[TheWho]

If the kid stopped breathing, which would mean he stopped struggling

I think what the guy said is the kid continued to struggle after he stopped breathing, which made it hard to notice that he had stopped breathing, because he was moving around so much.
Then after the kid passed out or whatever happened the counselor might have noticed he wasnt moving, this could be several minutes of not knowing he had stopped breathing at this point.

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-30 08:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

"It's enough of a red flag to keep all but the most ignorant parents away. Beware of murderous programs!"

Yes, any place where a death occurs needs a second look.

[Anonymous]

Stands to reason that if a child is being restrained and can not breathe that he will fight harder right before he dies.

Seems a responsible person would release his hold if the kid's struggle for life escalated or spiked beyond safety, at the very minimum, ask the kid if he can breathe. If the kid doesn't respond, chances are good he can't and the hold should be released.

Restraint induces high stress and is too risky to be used on kids, particularly by young, inexperienced, and/or sadistic staff.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-30 08:45:00, Anonymous wrote:


I think what the guy said is the kid continued to struggle after he stopped breathing, which made it hard to notice that he had stopped breathing, because he was moving around so much.

Then after the kid passed out or whatever happened the counselor might have noticed he wasnt moving, this could be several minutes of not knowing he had stopped breathing at this point."

This makes absolutely no sense.  How can he continue to struggle after he's no longer breathing?  Unless you believe he was holding his breath and even then when the movement stopped, so should the restraint!!!!  You don't stop breathing AND die simultaneously, it takes a few minutes after cessation of breathing.  He would have been unconscious for a few minutes before he died.  No movement, no restraint.  Again, no excuse for this.

[TheWho]

Stands to reason that if a child is being restrained and can not breathe that he will fight harder right before he dies

Exactly

Seems a responsible person would release his hold if the kid's struggle for life escalated or spiked beyond safety, at the very minimum, ask the kid if he can breathe. If the kid doesn't respond, chances are good he can't and the hold should be released.

So either the counselor wasnt trained properly or he was trying to kill the kid.  Not sure dialog was an option, the kid was trying bang his skull on the ground.

Restraint induces high stress and is too risky to be used on kids, particularly by young, inexperienced, and/or sadistic staff.

I may agree, seems like a legal question for the courts to outlaw its use, but if they do then a replacement procedure needs to be determined to address someone who is harming themselves.

[TheWho]

Stands to reason that if a child is being restrained and can not breathe that he will fight harder right before he dies

Exactly

Seems a responsible person would release his hold if the kid's struggle for life escalated or spiked beyond safety, at the very minimum, ask the kid if he can breathe. If the kid doesn't respond, chances are good he can't and the hold should be released.

So either the counselor wasnt trained properly or he was trying to kill the kid.  Not sure dialog was an option, the kid was trying bang his skull on the ground.

Restraint induces high stress and is too risky to be used on kids, particularly by young, inexperienced, and/or sadistic staff.

I may agree, seems like a legal question for the courts to outlaw its use, but if they do then a replacement procedure needs to be determined to address someone who is harming themselves.

[Anonymous]

>>>>I think what the guy said is the kid continued to struggle after he stopped breathing, which made it hard to notice that he had stopped breathing, because he was moving around so much.<<<

Do you not read the contradiction in that statement?
If he knew the kid CONTINUED TO STRUGGLE AFTER HE STOPPED BREATHING then he KNEW HE WASN'T BREATHING before he died.
I understand the need to feel empathy for this so-called counselor, where's the empathy for the child who had the life squeeze out of him?