Author Topic: Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx  (Read 32699 times)

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Offline TheWho

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2005, 11:36:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-12-28 22:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Bottom line here is these places Boot Camps, RTCs should all be shut down. Chrildren are being Killed! Vision Quist had over five children die in there care almost every year. Whats wrong with this world? Whats wrong these parernts? Do they think these stories are untrue. Do people really think these places help? Are people that Stupid that they can take a 50/50 chance there son or daughter will come out of one of these places Alive. I hate these places,and I hate the people that place these kids in these places. There lives are put at more risk then if they were out on the streets doing drugs. Most of the parents that send there kids to these places go to bed with a warm feeling inside at night thinking there child is safe, in good hands.Little do they know is that they too can still get that Dredful phone call in the middell of the night. We need to do something to help these kids. Someone has to STOP these kids from being MURDERED! "
I dont think it is accurate to condem all schools because of a few which have problems.  There are some inner city schools which should be closed due to violence but I dont think we should advocate shutting down every school in America.  Lets focus on the problem areas, it makes it easier to handle also.  
Parents do and should sleep well knowing their child is safe and off the streets where they could be killed.  I guess I would not place them in Vision quist (I ahve never heard of it) or any other school without first investigating it.
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Offline Anonymous

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2005, 02:43:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-28 22:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Bottom line here is these places Boot Camps, RTCs should all be shut down. Chrildren are being Killed! Vision Quist had over five children die in there care almost every year. Whats wrong with this world? Whats wrong these parernts? Do they think these stories are untrue. Do people really think these places help? Are people that Stupid that they can take a 50/50 chance there son or daughter will come out of one of these places Alive. I hate these places,and I hate the people that place these kids in these places. There lives are put at more risk then if they were out on the streets doing drugs. Most of the parents that send there kids to these places go to bed with a warm feeling inside at night thinking there child is safe, in good hands.Little do they know is that they too can still get that Dredful phone call in the middell of the night. We need to do something to help these kids. Someone has to STOP these kids from being MURDERED! "


First of all the kids at vision quest died in a car accident in which they drowned...Vision Quest has been shut down -- I believe....

Do you even have kids?  I have a son in a treatment center and I sleep quite well -- thank you...

Much better than when he was using crack and meth and not coming home at night.  I'll take his odds in a well run treatment center (many are not well run) over the street any day of the week.

When he is 18 he can choose for himself with my blessing -- until then it is my responsibility to at least attempt to intervene and offer him the chance to live long enough to make his own decisions.

It is much more irresponsible to not act -- Don't use the tired phrase that all these kids need is better parents and more love and more structure -- some of us have exausted every avenue and for once in our childrens lives they are making real progress --

I think it is critical to listen to your kids no matter what they are telling you both by thier words as well as their actions.  My son tells me he is so thankful that we got him the help he could not get in a home setting.

There are good schools and good programs out there...it is our job to check them out and keep checking them out every minute our kids are there.

Don't think we just send them away and think someone is going to fix them -- that is not the case.
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Offline Troll Control

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2005, 04:42:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-29 11:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-12-28 22:23:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Bottom line here is these places Boot Camps, RTCs should all be shut down. Chrildren are being Killed! Vision Quist had over five children die in there care almost every year. Whats wrong with this world? Whats wrong these parernts? Do they think these stories are untrue. Do people really think these places help? Are people that Stupid that they can take a 50/50 chance there son or daughter will come out of one of these places Alive. I hate these places,and I hate the people that place these kids in these places. There lives are put at more risk then if they were out on the streets doing drugs. Most of the parents that send there kids to these places go to bed with a warm feeling inside at night thinking there child is safe, in good hands.Little do they know is that they too can still get that Dredful phone call in the middell of the night. We need to do something to help these kids. Someone has to STOP these kids from being MURDERED! "




First of all the kids at vision quest died in a car accident in which they drowned...Vision Quest has been shut down -- I believe....



Do you even have kids?  I have a son in a treatment center and I sleep quite well -- thank you...



Much better than when he was using crack and meth and not coming home at night.  I'll take his odds in a well run treatment center (many are not well run) over the street any day of the week.



When he is 18 he can choose for himself with my blessing -- until then it is my responsibility to at least attempt to intervene and offer him the chance to live long enough to make his own decisions.



It is much more irresponsible to not act -- Don't use the tired phrase that all these kids need is better parents and more love and more structure -- some of us have exausted every avenue and for once in our childrens lives they are making real progress --



I think it is critical to listen to your kids no matter what they are telling you both by thier words as well as their actions.  My son tells me he is so thankful that we got him the help he could not get in a home setting.



There are good schools and good programs out there...it is our job to check them out and keep checking them out every minute our kids are there.



Don't think we just send them away and think someone is going to fix them -- that is not the case.

"


This thread is about a PARTICULAR program.  This PARTICULAR program has a sad history of KILLING CHILDREN.

Now if your experience is with this program, then say so and talk about your experiences.  If you are talking about a DIFFERENT program, you should try to find a/post a new thread about your program so you can avoid distracting from the focus on this PARTICULAR program's killing of children.

 :skull: WARNING: THIS PLACE KILLS KIDS  :skull:
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Offline TheWho

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2005, 05:53:00 PM »
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This thread is about a PARTICULAR program. This PARTICULAR program has a sad history of KILLING CHILDREN


No, this thread was started in response to a death at Star Ranch in Tx.  I didnt see anywhere a history of killing children talked about at this place, I think you are on the wrong thread.....
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Offline MADMOM

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2005, 06:00:00 PM »
Actually, this whole thread has been about Star Ranch and the unfortunate death of a young man who was killed while in a restraint hold.  Please stick to the topic.....
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Offline Anonymous

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2005, 06:09:00 PM »
if the parents were trying to raise their kids, instead of getting information from a forum like this, then this discussion wouldn't be happening. It's amazing the people who sit on here during normal daylight hours, bitching, and advancing their knowledge and beliefs, but makes one wonder, what the hell are you doing? You not have a job or something? BTW, I'm retired.
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Offline TheWho

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2005, 06:15:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-29 15:09:00, Anonymous wrote:

"if the parents were trying to raise their kids, instead of getting information from a forum like this, then this discussion wouldn't be happening. It's amazing the people who sit on here during normal daylight hours, bitching, and advancing their knowledge and beliefs, but makes one wonder, what the hell are you doing? You not have a job or something? BTW, I'm retired. "
Retired from what? Life?  You should be out doing something, helping out kids, other adults etc.
Dont judge others harshly because they are seeking help, you should be ashamed of yourself.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2005, 07:06:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-10 10:41:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-12-10 06:28:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:


"It has nothing to do with wanting to hurt a kid, or not wanting to hurt a kid. Their just is no way to completely eliminate the potential risk for injuries or death in a restraint. All the training in the world can not cope with the contigencies faced in real world situations that do not have the nice control atmosphere of a dojo.





In the real world restraints never seem to ever happen on a nice padded surface with people about to supervise the situation. Most of the time they take place on a nice concrete floor, or with your left kidney balanced on a sharp rock with some pissed off kid kicking you in the nuts.





Restraints never seem to go down with that textbook precision in training classes that have you break it down by the steps as you ease the youth to the nice padded floor, and carefully work through the motions to avoid injury. Never do you see a restraint take place where you have all the staff in world to help control the situation before it escalates out of hand.





This is coming from a person who single handedly performed over 200 standing, and prone restraints and only witnessed 5 major injuries during that time, and 4 of them were to myself. The one injury of significance was a broken collar bone that also resulted in me dislocating a finger.





Sorry Niles but practical experience tells me that their is just no way to do it safely, whether the person wants to hurt the kid, or even whether the person wants to prevent the kid from hurting themselves.  





 

What is a committee?  A group of the unwilling, picked from the unfit, to do the unnecessary.    
-- Richard Harkness, The New York Times, 1960

"




Sorry TSW, but my bullshit radar is blaring and screaming. I understand what you mean about surfaces, supervision, and all, but the danger you describe is in blunt trama and results in broken bones. This kid suffocated. I've been in enough wrestling matches, real fights, and parental restraining situations (from both sides) to know that if someone lets a kid suffocate, they are either stupid or a murderer. You can tell when someone can't breath and I want you to lighten up. It takes a pretty long time of not breathing to reach the point where someone cannot be revived. I'm not convinced there can be any valid excuse for suffocating a little kid to death."


Same. GO DO SOME DAMN JUUJUTSU (or jiujitsu, however the hell they romanize it) OR JUDO! You definitely can, especially if youre bigger than the kid and outnumber him.

Unless its a full scale riot there is NO way you cant unsafely restrain a child without physically or psychologically hurting them, unless you just fucking want to, dont care if you do, and youre trained.

Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0931580587/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Peter McWilliams

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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline TheWho

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2005, 07:22:00 PM »
Quote
Sorry TSW, but my bullshit radar is blaring and screaming. I understand what you mean about surfaces, supervision, and all, but the danger you describe is in blunt trama and results in broken bones. This kid suffocated. I've been in enough wrestling matches, real fights, and parental restraining situations (from both sides) to know that if someone lets a kid suffocate, they are either stupid or a murderer. You can tell when someone can't breath and I want you to lighten up. It takes a pretty long time of not breathing to reach the point where someone cannot be revived. I'm not convinced there can be any valid excuse for suffocating a little kid to death."


A restraining hold was used, it wasnt murder.  If he wanted to kill the kid, why not hold his head under water or do it at night?  Why do it in front of the whole school in the pool area?
Its hard to tell if a kid has stopped breathing when he is kicking, biting thrashing about.  It is nice to speculate and all but that is all we are doing until the investigation is over.
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Offline Troll Control

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2005, 07:44:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-29 16:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote
Sorry TSW, but my bullshit radar is blaring and screaming. I understand what you mean about surfaces, supervision, and all, but the danger you describe is in blunt trama and results in broken bones. This kid suffocated. I've been in enough wrestling matches, real fights, and parental restraining situations (from both sides) to know that if someone lets a kid suffocate, they are either stupid or a murderer. You can tell when someone can't breath and I want you to lighten up. It takes a pretty long time of not breathing to reach the point where someone cannot be revived. I'm not convinced there can be any valid excuse for suffocating a little kid to death."



A restraining hold was used, it wasnt murder.  If he wanted to kill the kid, why not hold his head under water or do it at night?  Why do it in front of the whole school in the pool area?

Its hard to tell if a kid has stopped breathing when he is kicking, biting thrashing about.  It is nice to speculate and all but that is all we are doing until the investigation is over.

"



************************************************
Maybe you should read the thread.  Here is the thread-starter.  As you can see from reading it, a child was killed by an employee of the facility.  I'm not sure why you have such a hard time grasping that.  
*************************************************

Deborah
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Joined: 2002-08-19
Posts: 2539
From: Texas
 Posted: 2005-12-09 12:37:00  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/ ... 14ef5.html
Autopsy shows boy, 12, at Kerr center suffocated

Web Posted: 12/08/2005 12:00 AM CST

Zeke MacCormack
Express-News Staff Writer

Autopsy findings released Wednesday attribute the weekend death of a Kerrville boy to suffocation while being restrained at Star Ranch, a
residential treatment center in Ingram.

An unidentified ranch staffer reportedly placed Christening "Mikie" Garcia, 12, in "a basket hold" as the emotionally disturbed youngster tried to bang his own head on the pavement.

Arms across his chest and hands held from behind by the staffer, Garcia stopped breathing Sunday evening and couldn't be revived, officials said.

Kerr County Justice of the Peace Bill Ragsdale is awaiting the results of toxicology tests on the boy, and investigations by state and local
authorities, before ruling on the manner of death.

The boy's parents could not be reached for comment.

A funeral service for him will be held at 9:30 a.m. Friday at Kerrville Funeral Home at 1121 Junction Highway.

Court records show Garcia had a history of banging his head. In January 2000, the state removed him and two other siblings from a household described as being in crisis.

At the time, the children's mother, Doris Garcia, now 40, moved out to escape what she called years of physical abuse by the father of her five kids, Innocencio Garcia, now 61.

Police had repeatedly responded to the Garcia home on complaints of domestic violence and runaway children, records show.

A Kerrville police officer, answering an assault complaint there on Dec. 13, 1999, said: "Violence is part of their everyday existence."

Doris and Innocencio Garcia relinquished their parental rights in 2004, records show.

An Oct. 18 report on the three Garcia children still in state custody states "Mikie" was placed at Star Ranch in August after having "serious behavior problems" at school and in a foster home.

"Star Ranch staff report that Mikie has had nine physical restraints in little over 30 days," the report filed in court records states. "He is
reported to be fighting, biting and fleeing."

On Sunday, authorities said, the boy was sent to "timeout" because of a violent outburst, then he banged his head on the ground.

"He had a troubled life and that (head banging) was one of the ways he got attention," said Rand Southard, director of Star Ranch, a private, nonprofit facility that opened in 1989.
[WAY HE GOT ATTENTION? Totally incompetent and has no business working with children]

State placements account for most of the clientele of 32 boys, 7 to 17 years old, with learning disabilities or emotional problems.

Southard said he's confident that the staffer, whom he described as "devastated" by Garcia's death, had followed guidelines.

"We're all upset that this happened," Southard said. "We desperately try to take care of the children in our care. This is a terrible accident."

Ragsdale said Travis County Medical Examiner Roberto Bayardo reported that the autopsy and on-scene circumstances led him to conclude "that the
decedent came to his death as a result of suffocation during physical restraint."

Forced restraint has been associated with at least 20 other deaths in Texas since 1990, according to an Austin watchdog group for psychiatric patients.

Lee Spiller of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights of Texas said such deaths seldom result in prosecution because - as in this situation - the
restraint is described as an effort to aid a troubled client.

"We'd rather see all the facilities be restraint-free," Spiller said Wednesday. "A restraint-free facility may or may not be practical, but I
would say the use of deadly force on small children is definitely impractical."
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Offline Anonymous

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2005, 09:19:00 PM »
Wake up people! Star Ranch, and All the other (schools) do the same things to these children. Restraint is Restraint Death is Death no matter where it happens. And it IS happening to these helpless kids.
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Offline Anonymous

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2005, 09:35:00 PM »
Do you sleep better at night because your son is out of the way? How sure are you he s safe? And by the way about 25 children have died in Vision Quest through out the years, look it up yourself. Does it make feel good your son is away? Star Ranch is no deffernt then the rest. They all put the Fear of God in these kids. Is that help? Nobody here used the Tired phrase that the kids needs better parents. It seems to me you yourself have been told that before. Sometimes the truth hurts.
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Offline TheWho

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2005, 11:02:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-29 18:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Do you sleep better at night because your son is out of the way? How sure are you he s safe? And by the way about 25 children have died in Vision Quest through out the years, look it up yourself. Does it make feel good your son is away? Star Ranch is no deffernt then the rest. They all put the Fear of God in these kids. Is that help? Nobody here used the Tired phrase that the kids needs better parents. It seems to me you yourself have been told that before. Sometimes the truth hurts."
How does vision quest fit into all of this, I thought this was about Star Ranch?
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Offline TheWho

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2005, 11:09:00 PM »
Quote
************************************************
Maybe you should read the thread. Here is the thread-starter. As you can see from reading it, a child was killed by an employee of the facility. I'm not sure why you have such a hard time grasping that.
*************************************************

Yes I understand completely but some people keep changing the subject to Vison Quest and murder.  I dont see the connection, a child was killed during a restaint hold and the investigation is pending, why is this not clear?

Why not wait for the results?  You junp to conclusions of conspiracies and murder, people who own the schools are killing kids.  If they are really only focused on making money like you say, well wake up Murder and Death isnt good for any business, you cant argue it both ways.
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Offline ree

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Death due to Restraint at Star Ranch RTC- Ingram, Tx
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2005, 11:23:00 PM »
It dosent matter where it happend, it happend. :evil:
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