Author Topic: Spring Creek Lodge  (Read 337342 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #705 on: February 14, 2006, 09:44:00 AM »
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I am sorry to hear that your son had a bad expirence. I am a former student.. for real, not posing as one... I was in TB in 2000 and then transfered to SCL and graduated in early 2001. I didn't have a bad expirence. I think that is why the place remains open. There are a lot of people out there that didn't. I have a lot of friends that won't post on here because it hurts them to see people talk bad a bout a place that they hold so dear to their heart. I will say that I know that that place can be a bit like quick sand.. the harder you fight it.. the more it hurts. I conformed.. not afraid to say it. I learned a lot and I graduated in 16 months. It's all about how you go about it I think.


And why is it, the same poster who comes back here and praises SCL, spells the same words wrong... everytime? THen when questioned, turns out you DIDNT go there.  Your credibilitly in this thread is, well, nill.
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Offline CCM girl 1989

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« Reply #706 on: February 14, 2006, 10:39:00 AM »
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I am sorry to hear that your son had a bad expirence. I am a former student.. for real, not posing as one... I was in TB in 2000 and then transfered to SCL and graduated in early 2001. I didn't have a bad expirence. I think that is why the place remains open. There are a lot of people out there that didn't. I have a lot of friends that won't post on here because it hurts them to see people talk bad a bout a place that they hold so dear to their heart. I will say that I know that that place can be a bit like quick sand.. the harder you fight it.. the more it hurts. I conformed.. not afraid to say it. I learned a lot and I graduated in 16 months. It's all about how you go about it I think."


You know, you all are becoming better and better at disgusing yourself (WWASP Staff). I read this post, with an open mind, and sit back to think about it.......

You have some nerve coming on here, and saying oh....it hurts me and my friends so much to come on here, and read hurtful things about the place we love so much! Do you really think I liked going through what I did there? I wish it had been different too, but it wasn't.

There is something else I don't get.....how did you manage to stay in contact with all these former students from these places? You're not allowed to take personal information, such as emails, phone numbers, or addresses, of other students with you when you leave? Oh no, did you break a rule????

By the way, this is my 16 year anniversary of being gone from Cross Creek Manor. 16 years ago around 10:30pm I dangled out of the top floor window of the manor hanging by a vacuum cord. I was scared to death because I couldn't hold on anymore, so I had a couple of the girls (each one had a hold of one of my arms) trying to pull me back up into the window. I remember telling the girls "fuck it, let me go" they did just that, and I fell, hitting the asphault of the parking lot pretty hard. I got up, grabbed my bag, and to my surprise had landed in front of a window in the manors formal meeting room that was holding a late night staff meeting (just my luck!). The staff all saw me, and scrambled to their feet, and out the manors front door to chase me into the night. I ran, duck, and dived into bushes while they had the spotlight from the vans searching for me. I am deathly afraid of spiders/bugs, and here I was in my PJ's in the dirt! I was in, and out of irrigation ditches, making my way across open land with barbed wire fences, praying to not get shot by some hill billy farmer!!! I made my way back to a street that had a few houses on it. I found one, that looked like a cabin, and it had all these bottles in the windows. I thought it would be the easiest to get into. Here I stood on the porch, scared to death. There was a dog underneath the porch that sounded like it wanted to make me it's midnight snack. I was shivering. I'm not sure if it was from the cold, or my nerves?

I tried the front door, and it was open. I went inside, and this place was a mess! I was trying to find a phone, but there was so much crap thrown all over the place. I didn't think anyone was home, so I thought I would go in search of money. I saw a light on in a room, and peeked in. There was a man asleep on his bed. I couldn't tell his age, but I was desperete so I woke him up. He freaked out, and to my surprise he was only 19 or 20? He agreed to help me, and he had me sent to a house in Hurricane, UT. with 4 guys. It was a duplex that had no heat. On the other side was my old therapist Bob's son and his wife who either lived there, or were they slumlords? I can't remember! Sending those guys to the grocery store to buy me black hair dye was a challange. I think they may have had to steal it, the first time they came back they had the wrong stuff!!! Anyway, it doesn't matter, I never went back.

Wow, 16 years ago!?!! It's my life, and unlike this other person who had the nerve to write this nonsense above. Mine is a true story. My experiences are all over this forum. They are all real things that did happen to me.

The whole time I was at CCM, I never knew of one single person that said their lives were better because of their time spent there. NOT ONE!!!! So parents, please think twice. Really think about what you are doing to your kids. I have done everything in my power to be the best person possible. I wasn't given very much, but I am a survivor. People look up to me in my every day life. People respect me, and like me. I try and be the best wife, daughter, and friend I can be. All we can do is try, and be the best we can be. Nobody is perfect, and sometimes I don't say or do the right things! But, I am here because I don't want parents to make the same mistakes mine did. All I can do is warn you. You'll do what you want.

Happy Valentine's Day everyone! I hope you have someone special to share it with. Even spending it alone (which I did a number of years) make sure and do something special for you!

Peace,

Miranda
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline CaughtInTheMiddle

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« Reply #707 on: February 14, 2006, 12:19:00 PM »
Miranda,

  I have a few questions. Is it possible that things have changed in 16 years? or that maybe kids that are more rebellious, strong willed, and defiant have a harder time. Most of the stuff I have read seems to have happened years ago or over seas. I am trying to get a better understanding. Maybe it does help kids with certain personalities. I have met a few kids at a support group for families with kids in these programs. That said they hated being there and where pissed there parents put them there.
But now they feel there life is better. I understand they are part of a support group could be getting paid or what ever from these schools. I am not convinced either way because there is so much info from both sides that is why I ask. You want me or parents to believe you and not them they want us to believe them it is hard. They did say there were kids there that got into a lot of trouble and didn't benefit. That is why I wonder if it has something to do with personality. I have a pain in the ass daughter myself and her name is also Miranda..lol  I feel she would be like you looking for any chance to get out. She wouldn't take shit from anyone no matter how they hurt her. The more you push her the harder she pushes back. So I don't believe she has the personality from what I have learned to go to this place. I sure wish I could figure out what would help her I don't know how much more I have in me to take the shit she gives me. What type of things happen to you? Where you physically abused, Mentally abused, raped or were you just pissed because you were there and wouldn't back down? Do you feel looking back now that you are older and wiser that if you would have just went along with what you were suppose to do that these things may not have happened to you? I do believe there must be something to all this or there wouldn't be people on this forum and my space. I am just wondering if these kids that say they benefited from this program maybe were more laid back and had a personality that aloud them to open there mind more or to just deal with it waiting for the day they get to leave. I am also  hoping that Alex being a respectful kid will benefit. I won't know until he gets out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #708 on: February 14, 2006, 12:26:00 PM »
I guess this means that Alex is still in there, still suffering.  Wow.  I really don't know how parents can be made aware of what happens in there can still stand by and allow these freaks to have total and complete control over their kid and family.



http://www.missoulanews.com/News/News.asp?no=4970

Spring Creek's Short Leash
by John S. Adams, photos by Chad Harder
 
Above: With around 450 students, Spring Creek Lodge is the largest of Montana?s approximately 35 teen behavior modification and therapeutic programs. Students there are not allowed to fraternize with members of the opposite sex.
Below: Spring Creek director Chaffin Pullan, left, and program director Mike Chisholm, seated, say that ?intervention? rooms like this one are used to ?cool down? disruptive students. Former students say they are used as solitary confinement.
 
 
Montana?s behavior modification programs watch their troubled teen charges like hawks. Recent lawsuits and allegations of abuse raise the question: Who?s watching them?

By the summer of 2004 Janet Larson was at her wit?s end. Her 17-year-old daughter Christina (both names have been changed) was drinking, smoking, sneaking out, doing drugs and lying. Her parents were worried sick she would drop out of school, end up in jail, or worse.

So they made a difficult decision that summer, a decision they hoped would change their daughter?s life: They decided to send Christina to a private behavior modification program in Western Montana. Like thousands of parents around the country who send their children away in hopes of saving their lives, Christina?s parents were convinced they had no other choice.

Her experience at Spring Creek Lodge in Thompson Falls did change Christina?s life, but not in the way her parents expected. Less than two months after enrolling in the program, Christina was back home in southern California, dealing with what her mother calls the ?shock treatment? she received at Spring Creek, as well as the news that a bunk-mate and friend at the school had killed herself just days after Christina?s departure.

?Basically a pretty good kid?

Christina?s problems began in the seventh grade when she was 12 years old. Prior to middle school, Christina had been an honor-roll student in the 99th percentile in her class. Then her grades took a dive and she began hanging out with a girl her mom considered bad news. She and her new best friend tried to run away. (They were gone for a day.) She started smoking cigarettes and drinking. When her eighth-grade year rolled around, her grades went from bad to dismal.

Janet enrolled Christina in a private school and things improved for a while, but it didn?t last.

?We started getting calls from school,? recalls Janet. ?They said she?s not putting out her best effort and she was late to class all the time.?

By her sophomore year, Christina was dating an 18-year-old drug dealer.

?She was in love with that guy,? Janet says. ?She was only 15 and he was 18 and he was dealing drugs. We didn?t want our 15-year-old associating with this person. But she is a very stubborn young woman. I love her dearly but she is stubborn.?

Her parents hired a therapist but progress was slow, and soon Janet realized it wasn?t getting through to Christina.

When Christina was expelled her junior year for smoking dope, Janet was distraught and enrolled her daughter in a drug treatment program. Janet knew the situation was worsening, but she wasn?t desperate yet.

?She was still basically a pretty good kid. Maybe I was in denial?I don?t know?but it wasn?t that bad.?

By the end of the summer, however, Christina pushed her parents? trust to the breaking point.

She was caught skipping a friend?s funeral to get high. That?s when Janet decided to do something drastic.

?I started looking into wilderness treatment programs,? Janet says. ?I didn?t want to be with her any more. She was lying, coming home smelling like alcohol and cigarettes all the time. She didn?t care what we thought. She just lost all respect for us. She didn?t care anymore.?

Christina?s parents had learned about a school in Thompson Falls, called Spring Creek Lodge, from a counselor in Christina?s drug program. The counselor gave Janet a phone number and Janet made the call.

She made arrangements for Christina to enroll at Spring Creek in late August. Christina?s counselor warned the teen she could run and have the police track her down and arrest her and then send her by paid escort service to Spring Creek, or she could go willingly.

?My counselor told me there was a gym there and I?d be going hiking and swimming and kayaking,? Christina recalls. ?It sounded like a great place where I could get away from everything and turn myself around. All I wanted to do [was] finish high school and work out.?

Christina?s parents thought it sounded too good to be true. Spring Creek was located in a beautiful mountain setting in Western Montana, far from the influences steering Christina into trouble. Marketing materials pictured smiling kids taking part in fun activities amongst towering conifers and quaint log buildings.

A woman named Glenda at Spring Creek assured Janet over the phone that the program could help. She said all the right things and had all the right answers. In hindsight, Janet realizes the school never interviewed Christina or did any kind of psychological examination of her daughter. They took Janet?s word that Christina was a mess and said they would help get her life back on track.

The next thing Glenda did was hook Janet up with a loan officer. There was no discussion about Janet?s financial situation or whether she and her husband could afford the $3,390 monthly tuition the school charged (not counting enrollment fees, therapy costs, incidentals and uniform expenses).

Looking back, Janet says she should have sensed something was wrong when Spring Creek was so quick to square the loan away, but she was now desperate.

?I couldn?t stop worrying at night,? she says. ?She was going out at night and I didn?t know what she was up to. She was not progressing in school. I was worried she was going to end up a heroin addict. I was afraid for our daughter.?

So Christina and her dad flew to Spokane, where they rented a car and drove to Spring Creek Lodge.

?Every time we stopped somewhere to get gas or something to eat I wanted to just run,? says Christina. ?I remember thinking, ?I can?t believe I?m getting dropped off in Montana.? I was pissed off, but I kept telling myself, ?I?m only going to be here for four months. I am going to get out of here. It?s not going to be forever.??

She had good reason to think that. Her mother had promised her she would pick her up in a few months if everything was going okay.

Christina was terrified when she arrived at Spring Creek. After checking in she was given two tearful minutes to say goodbye to her dad, and then she was alone. For the next 42 days, Christina says she was told her parents weren?t coming for her like they said they would, that she would have to graduate the program or stay at Spring Creek indefinitely. Christina says she was made to believe that her parents had lied to her.

Janet says she saw her first red flag when her husband returned from dropping Christina off and told her they wouldn?t be able to talk to their daughter for three months.

Then, just days after Christina?s arrival at Spring Creek, Janet and her husband were instructed to sign a ?commitment letter.?

?I did not want to [send] that letter, because it wasn?t true,? Janet recalls furiously. ?That?s what the program does; it makes you lie to your kids.?

The commitment letter said Christina was expected to complete all phases of the Spring Creek program, a process that takes at least 18 months. The letter confirmed their commitment to the program, no matter how long it took.

Both parents signed.

?A lot of things set off bells in our heads,? says Janet. ?We told her three or four months. I mean, basically, she?s a pretty good kid. Now I was lying to her. We don?t want her to lie to us and now we?re lying to her.?

The letter was delivered to Christina, who was devastated.

?I thought my parents had lied to me. I thought I was going to be there until I turned 18.?

Janet was concerned about her daughter?s state of mind, but she wasn?t allowed to talk to her. Program rules explicitly deny parents contact for the first two months, and even then, only monitored phone contact is allowed, and only if the child has achieved ?advanced? status in Spring Creek?s program.

Students enrolled at Spring Creek, and other member facilities of the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS), follow a strictly regimented points-based program and are organized into ?Families? with names like ?Integrity,? ?Serenity,? ?Eternity? and ?Innocence.? Families consist of 20 to 30 students and a staff member known as the ?mother? or ?father.? Students spend nearly every waking and sleeping moment with their Family. Families walk from classroom to cafeteria to their dorms in lockstep unison. According to news reports and families of students, a child can?t graduate the program until she demonstrates to the satisfaction of Spring Creek staff that she has taken responsibility for the actions that put her in the school in the first place. She must appear to believe that the program has saved her life. As reporter Decca Aitkenhead described the program at an affiliated facility called Tranquility Bay in Jamaica in a 2003 article in the London newspaper The Observer, ?They must renounce their old self, espouse the program?s belief system, display gratitude for their salvation, and police fellow students who resist.?

The WWASPS program is based on the theory that behaviors can be modified by the enforcement of consequences. Inappropriate behaviors, therefore, are met with swift retribution.

When a child arrives at Spring Creek, she starts at Level 1. In order to graduate the program, she must accumulate merit points. Points are hard-earned and easily lost. Speaking out of turn, looking at a member of the opposite sex, or horsing around?according to a card the students wear around their necks?can cost a student a day?s worth of points. Insubordination or fighting can result in the loss of three levels.

Level 1 students are prohibited from talking to Level 2 students.

?If your levels add up to four you can talk to one another,? says one Spring Creek student.

According to Christina, advanced, or upper-level students, Levels 4, 5 and 6, have more freedom than lower-level students. Girls, for example, might get to wear some make-up. For three days each week, upperlevel students work as ?junior staff.? They become the eyes and the ears of the staff when staff are out of sight, and they ?consequence? other students who step out of line.

Students who are disruptive or have outbursts are placed in ?intervention.? They are taken, sometimes by force, to a room students call ?the Hobbit,? where they sit in chairs. Some kids have reported being put in intervention for days, even months. The school maintains that a student is put in intervention for 30-minute ?cooling off? periods. If they fail to cool off or remain disruptive, they may stay longer, under the watchful eye of a staff member.

Christina says she tried to steer clear of trouble while she was at Spring Creek, because she believed she was only biding her time until her mother came to get her.

While she wasn?t allowed to talk to her daughter, Janet was paying an additional $75 per week for Christina?s therapy sessions. Then, one day in late September, she received a call from a therapist at Spring Creek, a woman she had never met. The woman told Janet that after only her second session with Christina, she was convinced Christina was depressed. The therapist said she wanted to prescribe anti-depressants.

?They wanted me to put my daughter on anti-depressants without even letting me talk to her,? Janet says, disgusted at the memory. ?Put her on drugs? That was the breaking point for me. I have read a lot about antidepressants in children and a lot of kids commit suicide while taking them. I didn?t even know who was prescribing these drugs. That was it for me.?

So Janet drove from southern California to Thompson Falls. Christina?s dad notified Spring Creek only hours before Janet got there, and when Janet arrived Christina?s things were boxed and waiting for her.

Unbeknownst to Janet or Christina, a mother from a community just a short drive from their California hometown was also on her way to Spring Creek. After hearing the news that Mexican authorities had raided and closed Casa by the Sea?an affiliated teen behavior modification facility located about 50 miles south of San Diego?that mother decided it was time to take her child out of the Spring Creek program. Her daughter was one of Christina?s Family members.

On that day in early October 2004, Spring Creek lost two students, and with them about $80,000 per year in tuition and fees.

Three days later, the school lost another of Christina?s Family members. Karlye Anne Newman, a 16-year-old girl from Denver, hanged herself in the bunkhouse that she?d shared with Christina only days earlier. She died just days before her 17th birthday.............continues at Missoula News, link above
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #709 on: February 14, 2006, 12:40:00 PM »
Mickey Manning, Spring Creek?s principal, says the school?s detractors should not be believed.

?The population you are speaking to is definitely a biased group that really fervently believes what they are saying,? Manning says.

Manning maintains that parents and students who left Spring Creek and today denounce its practices are in denial about the problems in their own families.

?Part of it is to protect themselves from the pain of the reality of what they?ve gone through,? says Manning. ?As far as the kids are concerned, they are going to manipulate to the hills, because that?s what these kids do.?

?That?s pretty much the program line,? counters Dr. Roderick Hall, a San Diego-based clinical psychologist who specializes in child psychology. ?You hear the exact same thing at all of the schools. They say the kids are liars and manipulators and they convince the parents that that?s true.?

Hall says parents and kids may see results from the type of behavior modification that takes place at facilities like Spring Creek, but in the long run, they do more harm than good.

?It?s not therapy at all,? says Hall. ?I haven?t heard anything that goes on in those facilities that has anything to do with therapy. It?s more like scaring the heck out of them so that they fall in line. That will work, temporarily.?

WWASPS, Hall says, catches parents ?when they are vulnerable, desperate. They provide what looks like an easy solution. I think their facilities are nothing more than private prisons.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline CaughtInTheMiddle

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« Reply #710 on: February 14, 2006, 12:55:00 PM »
I have read that story. You didn't have to waist a whole page on it the link would have been fine. Yes there has been only one suicide I have been able to find at SCL. Who is to say she wouldn't have committed suicide even if she wasn't sent there. That is why I say there is kids that don't belong there or don't benefit. Could there be kids that do benefit and what is the difference between them? I am not on either side here. I would not send my daughter there because I don't believe she would benefit. That doesn't mean nobody would. It is apparent you didn't. But for you to say nobody would because you didn't makes me think you are still very angry (with reason I am sure) and unable to open your mind to feel someone else would.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #711 on: February 14, 2006, 12:57:00 PM »
Lobotamies were succesful on a certain number of patients... but for some reason they aren't performed anymore. Go figure.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #712 on: February 14, 2006, 01:03:00 PM »
I didn't post it for the story on the suicide, I posted it for the description of the place as a whole.  You've read it, great.  Some others haven't.  It was just published a couple of days ago.  I don't consider posting a portion of the article (it was rather long) a "waist" (read waste) at all.  A lot of people skip over sole links.  The articles seem to get read more if there's at least a portion of it posted.

Amazing how you pick the suicide and the possiblity that she 'could' have done it if not at SCL as the ONE thing about the article that you'd comment on.  When you read the description of daily life there one can easily see how this kind of an environment might well produce suicidal feelings.  I also noted that there were about 4 other suicide attempts in the weeks leading up to the girl that succeeded.

and they talk about us[/b] being 'in denial'.   :roll:
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Offline CaughtInTheMiddle

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« Reply #713 on: February 14, 2006, 02:28:00 PM »
I just noticed the date. Funny I read it about  months ago they must have reposted it with a new date. Refer to page 16 in this forum dated 12-3-05 things seem fishy when they change the date like that. Who is in charge of that site? Sorry I don't disagree with everything that you do. My daughter is soo bad that I don't find it wrong that she not fraternize with members of the opposite sex. She has to earn time on the computer and phone or out with friends. She can't seem to so she is always home in my face. I could not send my daughter some where that I couldn't have contact with her.  I wish there was a place I could send her it has gotten that bad with her being disrespectful. I am not that strong. I was asking because I have talked to a few people who say they benefited from the program. I can not learn if I don't ask. I am surprised you didn't try to say I was a troll for spelling words wrong. I did say I believe there must be some truth to these postings or there wouldn't be so many. I will not find out until my nephew gets home how he was really treated. I do know they monitor the site they even know who I am.

Thank you again Exit Plan the way you explain things did make me look at a few things in a different way.   I find it amazing that parents send there 12 year olds there for 2 years or longer. I could not do that.
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Offline CCM girl 1989

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« Reply #714 on: February 14, 2006, 03:44:00 PM »
I'm reading your mail Exit Plan  :smile: (that means I understand what you are saying!!!!).

Anyway, I see you are from Sunny California.........but wherabouts? I forget is it LA?

I went in, and read your blog. That was such a good read. A little emotional for me since I have spent years trying to forget what happened to me there. The little things....the arrival...the writing of a million letters to my parents....realizing that they were under the spell of WWASP by saying it was just me trying to manipulate them......nothing bad was happening to me there! The whole thing of admitting what you did wrong in the seminars....and still getting in trouble for it! I remember we had some Vivarin (caffiene pills) floating around, and some people had taken them, and admitted it. A couple of us admitted to sneaking a cigarette out in the middle of the yard. God, just the little things......little funny things I have totally forgotten about.

One thing I will never forget, and let me make this very clear. The day I went into Robert Lichfields office and said look here, I am going to tell everyone what is going on between us, the shopping, the test driving of the car, the promises of moving me down to the vacant house near yours, the promises of giving me Peanut Butter (one of your horses), the talk of marriage when I got a little older, the touring around the country together doing these seminars, and being able to spend time together alone at the hotels, unless you let me out of here!!!

You sat back in your chair unphased, overweight, with this smug look on your face, and told me to go ahead and tell anyone I wanted to. Nobody would believe me. If I remember you correctly it was you saying, who are they going to believe someone like me, or someone like you, that has years of proof of lying, and manipulating. You'd have me sent off to wilderness camp before I knew what happened.

You're right, who was going to help me behind the closed doors of Cross Creek? Well, nobody did. We sat down in front of Dr. Dave Goodwin, Brent Facer, and each told our stories while we looked at eachother(while telling yours, I just wanted to punch you in the face for lying). I told many specifics, you couldn't. All you could say was that I was a liar, and a manipulator. Those guys were employed by you, it wasn't until I was at the Social Service office and told them in a video taped interview that you were banned from stepping foot onto Cross Creek. I wish they would've done a polygraph at that time, I would have passed with flying colors.

The fact you have gone on to open all these places, and that you financially benefit from them. It makes me sick. Your thought process about things is sick. The fact you are still hurting all these kids, makes me sick. You seem to hook up with others that have the same sick thoughts as you. I look at pictures of you, and surprise surprise it makes me sick!!!!!!!

I don't know how much more of this I can take!!! If someone doesn't do something soon, I just don't know what I'll do? It is so frusterating, it is so wrong. These kids are hurting, and the people who have the power to do something about it, are doing nothing!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline CCM girl 1989

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« Reply #715 on: February 14, 2006, 04:53:00 PM »
Sorry, I totally went off on a tangient! I guess I am just having one of those days. It's the combination of it being the anniversary of me being gone from those awful places, and reading exit plans blog.

 :grin:
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Offline The Liger

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« Reply #716 on: February 14, 2006, 05:46:00 PM »
I really liked the remark above about "only one suicide."  SCL should put that in their brochure.  

You know, CIM, it is entirely possible that people do not benefit BECAUSE of SCL, but IN SPITE of it.  I mean, someone who goes from age 15 to age 18 is probably going to mature a bit regardless of whether they're locked up in hell or at home with their parents.  Those programs just engrain it into your mind that you would be nothing without them.  Those of us who take any time to think critically about such claims eventually realize the truth.

I have a friend who was raped and beaten up by her stepfather for 5 years.  She now works with kids in similar situations.  She says that she is good at her job because of what she went through.  So, CIM, maybe you think we should allow children to be raped and beaten because some of them benefit from it.
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Offline CaughtInTheMiddle

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« Reply #717 on: February 14, 2006, 06:54:00 PM »
"I really liked the remark above about "only one suicide." SCL should put that in their brochure"
 You left out the fact that she could have done that without going there. I had said that because I have read most of the links that have been put on this web site. So I must be paying attention. I also have said that at this time in my life I could not put my child in a school like this. I have never been put to the point where I feel my daughter is in danger and needs to go some where for help. I hope and pray that I never am. I have never personally known anyone in one of these programs to be sure what happens there. I will find out one day. Wish I never had to. I don't no any of you. I am sorry that these things happen to you. I think it is horrible. I also don't believe that kids should be locked up that long. (unless it is prison with a trial) But again I have not lived anything with my child to put my to that point.
I don't know if I could/would ever reach a point where I felt I had to or wanted to. I will say that I can see why parents send there kids there I have seen it first hand with wonderful parents who really do want the best for there kids. I hope if all this stuff is still going on some how you all can come together and do something about it. Sorry if it upsets you when I ask questions maybe to you they are dumb questions.
Maybe I ask only because my nephew is in there and I want some hope or to believe he is ok. Not because I don't want to believe you.
"maybe you think we should allow children to be raped and beaten because some of them benefit from it."
    Now come on that is really sick. She didn't benefit from it in any way. why because she works with kids that it also happen to. Who is to say she would have worked with kids in any way. That is a nice way to help someone Why treat me like that. I didn't put you in that place or do anything to you. Just asked a few questions.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #718 on: February 14, 2006, 11:47:00 PM »
I see your point, CIM, about the "only one suicide" comment and others' reaction to it.  I think everyone keeps harping on that point because there is very little measureable evidence of what went on at SCL.  When it's a counselor's word against a kid's, they say the kids are manipulating.  When former students, who number over 1,000 on anti-WWASP sites, complain with consistency about the treatment they received, the program continues to deny it.  So that "one suicide" is one of the only pieces of proof we have about what is going on.  How do you measure abuse?  Apparently not by the thousands, because we have that in numbers of former WWASP kids who are on the internet voicing their opinions.  I personally experienced that some kids were treated worse than others in the few programs I was in.  And of course everyone interprets that and reacts to it differently.  Honestly, I really hope that Alex is not too shook up when he gets out since he knew he was a short-timer all along.  I would not wish deep-rooted psychological damage on anyone, including Alex.  It's just that, like people have pointed out, there are zero pro-WWASPers other than the program's anonymous posts we periodically see on here.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #719 on: February 15, 2006, 01:14:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-02-14 09:19:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:

"Miranda,



  I have a few questions. Is it possible that things have changed in 16 years? or that maybe kids that are more rebellious, strong willed, and defiant have a harder time. Most of the stuff I have read seems to have happened years ago or over seas. I am trying to get a better understanding. Maybe it does help kids with certain personalities. I have met a few kids at a support group for families with kids in these programs. That said they hated being there and where pissed there parents put them there.

But now they feel there life is better. I understand they are part of a support group could be getting paid or what ever from these schools. I am not convinced either way because there is so much info from both sides that is why I ask. You want me or parents to believe you and not them they want us to believe them it is hard. They did say there were kids there that got into a lot of trouble and didn't benefit. That is why I wonder if it has something to do with personality. I have a pain in the ass daughter myself and her name is also Miranda..lol  I feel she would be like you looking for any chance to get out. She wouldn't take shit from anyone no matter how they hurt her. The more you push her the harder she pushes back. So I don't believe she has the personality from what I have learned to go to this place. I sure wish I could figure out what would help her I don't know how much more I have in me to take the shit she gives me. What type of things happen to you? Where you physically abused, Mentally abused, raped or were you just pissed because you were there and wouldn't back down? Do you feel looking back now that you are older and wiser that if you would have just went along with what you were suppose to do that these things may not have happened to you? I do believe there must be something to all this or there wouldn't be people on this forum and my space. I am just wondering if these kids that say they benefited from this program maybe were more laid back and had a personality that aloud them to open there mind more or to just deal with it waiting for the day they get to leave. I am also  hoping that Alex being a respectful kid will benefit. I won't know until he gets out. "


I'm usually not very blunt on these forums, but the line of thinking going on is, well frankly, pissing me off.

Someone states that if you conform they go easier on you. Duh?! Doesn't anyone else see how stupid that remark is? If a slave does what his master tells him to do without complaint and perhaps with a smile, maybe the slave will have an easier time. Does that make slavery okay?

Also, all this talk about efficacy. If torture 'works' does that make torture okay? Once again, I must state that whether the program actually helps teens is completely, one hundred percent, irrelevant. Let's not begin thinking or suggesting that perhaps we only need to have the teens screened. It is wrong to treat people this way, period.
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