The Psychology of then and now...

[Stripe]

Preface this post with the statement that I do not have a degree in Psychology or Psychiatry nor do I have a medical degree.


We are now 35 years, give or take one or two, from the time first Seed program in Ft. Lauderdale opened its doors for business.  

Today, many of the Seed program participants who post on this forum  are either or have previously admitted to, gotten treatment for, or exhibited a vast array of medical and psychological disorders.  There are also other seed participants who fully believe that those who have problems now, and admit to those problems, are merely looking for someone to blame.    

This thought is the result of a query in response of my post on another thread:

Are you sure you would not have been that way anyway? I'm not being a jerk. I'm being honest.
Some people want to blame someone for everything instead of accepting the responsibility on their own.


Except for medically-based psychological problems (i.e. chemical imbalances), most psychological problems are a result of EXTERNAL  factors that are not processed and resolved by the person who experienced them.  

It would be interesting to know whether the illnesses and psychological problems experienced by non-addict ex-seedlings are statistically within the range of ?normal? occurrences within the general population.  While I have no scientific data to back it up, I would venture to guess that statistically, non-addict ex-seedlings fall outside the statistical norms for the maladies they now suffer.  

I?ve seen no evidence in my own life or from other seed kids of anyone who simply had the seed experience and remained unaffected.  Most either:

1.   Went on to other addictions treatment programs fully embracing an addiction mentality/reality as  a way of life; or
2.   Went into full self-destruct mode;  or
3.   Continually tired to live the addictions-model life without being an addict and in the end, failed/never achieved any sense of personal satisfaction because there was no addiction to manage.


Does anybody know of any published or on-going studies in this area?

I know we have the anectdotal statements here on this forum from all sides, but I?m looking for something more scientific and less emotional.

[GregFL]

There are no studies that I am aware of Stripe, only anecedotal information that we share. But we are the group of internet posting graduates which further muddies the pool.

I think there are some common traits we share as graduates of the seed, generally, but proving this statistically realistically likely will never happen.

[Stripe]

It just seems ashame as this whole TC movement has enough activity and dissention to warrant it.  A study designed to quantify the actual results in an objective fashion, I would think would be of value to everyone.  Right now, what we have is a colleciton of personal experiences that are subject to both the speaker's and listener's bias.  Not that there's anything wrong with using and hearing personal experiences as a method of trying to understand what happened to me, it's just inherently biased by my brain.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has been around since approximately 1952. Over the years the types of mental disorders described and causation factors analyzed in the publication have expanded. It now includes many of the disorders discussed/faced/denied by many of the post-graduates of The Seed and other most TC programs.

And it's not a question of placing "blame" but rather, of validating my experiences through some method other than having someone reply, in essence - with either "I can relate to that" or "you're full of shit."

In my spare time....maybe I'll be able to follow up on this when I have access to more informaiton. If I come up with anything of substance I'll put it for review.
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-12-05 22:43 ]

[Jupiter Survivor]

Not sure if the DSM is the place to look. We could all find ourselves in there if you look hard enough...lol   I think a few classes in Sociology would be more appropriate.  Sociology shows how society (or our world however large or small that may be) effects us and vise versa.  The study of people and our/their effects on them IMHO deals more with Seed issues.  Being deprived of love and affection until we comply,

I know that when I went into the Seed, I hadn't used drugs, had a very low self esteem (like most teenagers), had a family from hell, and suffered abused.  Give that history, the Seed was the very worst place for me to be.  Could I have had it better not going?  Who knows?  
Auschwitz verses Dachau...the better of two evils.  Although there comes a time where one takes control of his life, he cannot deny the effect his past has had on him.  As much as I have moved on in my life, I would be lying to say I am over it completely. That anger that I still carry, helps me try and help others that are backed into corners and given no options. It gives me an edge on what I do, so one good thing came of it. As a matter of fact, this week about 20 kids now have a better option of an education because of it.  I am no more a meek and compliant person,  I am very vocal, very passionate about kids and am not intimidated by those in power.  I don't think I would have turned out this way WITHOUT being so abused.

I think I would have done better not missing my ENTIRE freshman year of high school (that one thing had a profound effect on my education), been told that I was lucky to have the family I did (since I was such a worthless piece of shit and all),been basically forced to confess to things I never did and be to think on my own (you know like staff thought) to gain some type of acceptance in a place I could not escape.  

Nance

[cleveland]

Stripe, check this out for a nonstandard view of treatment outcomes:

http://www.peele.net/lib/treatment.html

[Stripe]

Sure.  I am in complete agreement with you.  I'm not looking for a diagnosis for me.  I've had pleanty of those over the years from doctors, psychologists, church do-gooders, Alanon - etc., you name it.  My point was this:  the whole psychiatric profession (and the insurance companies) now recognize most all of the problems that folks suffer as real, diagnoable and treatable issues. Therefore, it is entirely possible because the diagnostic and treatment criteria exist, it would be entirely possible to measure the occurrence of such problems in a given population.

What I'd like to review or participate in is an independent, controlled study that might be able to once and for all take people who went through that program, or other similar programs, and  show - OR no show- some difinitve correlation between the experience and the long-term effect.

As it is now, if I say the expereince was bad for me, except in a few instances, I am met responses such as - you would have been that way anyway; you're in denial (of my addiction I guess); it was a great place and you're ungrateful for the gifts.  I see it all the time.

Jupiter, I like your observations and I completely understand. It does take time to work it all through and accept the part I played in my own demise vis-a-vis the seed. Being put in the was not a voluntary thing for me, but taking on the training and accepting and embracing that I was a worthless, full of shit, lying human being, and professing the same, negating the existence of my sexual being and turing away from good people who never harmed me in order to just be able to go home, go to school, or get off the whole program - now that has taken it's toll on my soul for 'lo these many years.

And my parents, bless them, have watched me for years trying to come to some understanding -  waiting patiently for me to see the creative, loving kid they knew long before they put me in the seed, who was buried under all that I heaped on myself.

Obviously the experience wasn't the same for every person who walked through the doors, voluntarily or not. So perhaps others really were worthless, full of shit, lying human beings as they profess.  I hope not, but their perception of the experience does not invalidate mine any more than the other way around. But still, I seriously doubt any of them were all that bad.  No matter how negative a picture they paint of themselves.

[Jupiter Survivor]

I guess there would be no conclusive answer to any study, I mean unless you send the same person in (have to use a time machine) with the same circumstances, no way to know for sure.  We are all so different, biologically, physically, emotionally and then you add in all the environmental factors, I don't know how you soul sort it out.  Then you would have to factor in the staff at the treatment, did they treat everyone the same, where they more willing to help hardcore addicts than those who were experimenting?

It's not like a double blind study where you can give someone a placebo and then take a few blood tests or answer a few questions.  Even the research on say Bipolar, is not conclusive.  Each person is different and most with that particular disease have overlapping symptoms of other mental health issues. It would be damn near impossible, anyone answering a study would be bias based on what their "perceived" was.  What if they were deluded and thought they were ok but still trying to please the staff?

I think the problems lies in perception.  You can have 100 people witness and event and literally get 100 different versions of the same event, and NO ONE is really wrong.  

Have you ever seen the study, I can't remember when it happened but was in a psy textbook I had, where a child was, at birth deprived of all human affection, they were fed, diapered, etc, but no playing, cuddling of human touch.  There was another one in which a dog was put in a caged area.  Every time he tried to step out of certain boundaries he was shocked.  He literally curled up in a ball and gave up.  

I am not sure what it is that makes some of us fight and some give up.  I complied for many years before I was able to fight.  I had some real depression bottled up inside, I believe to be environmental since I never took any meds.  I went to a therapist in my 30's, and after spending a month or so answering questions and talking about my life, she said basically said anyone who went through what I did would be crazy if they didn't think they were crazy....lol   Gotta love her technical terms!  All in all,  I can to terms with not being able to change the past or the people in it.  I could either turned into a hateful mean person, or be positive and draw some type of good from it.  Do not get me wrong, I would give anything NOT to have to have gone through what I did, but since that can't be changed I will not let it rule my life or let the hate fester inside of me.

Although I can vent some anger here on this board, it is not a reflection of my life.  It is merely my frustration of those in power taking advantage of someone weaker.  Holding accountable those who should have known better and looked the other way.