The Things Parents Do

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-11-19 09:24:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-11-17 17:18:00, Anonymous wrote:


"You are mighty defensive, maybe you are one of those people anon is talking about. In any case, you missed the point, which is kids don't get screwed up by themselves. No one is implying that middle class kids don't need help, the point is that they, along with their parents,   need help from trained professionals, not from abusive, uneducated guards. They do not need to be rejected by their families and warehoused in kiddie penal colonies out in the middle of nowhere. Maybe you are the one who needs to do some research and find out what the experts have to say about the subject. Might I suggest you google ASTART, an organization composed of mental health experts who are researching the long term effects of residential programs and trying to come up with safe alternatives.  "

Assuming again. Give me numbers here and show documentation. I can tell you that I know personally most of the programs in the state of Montana use trained professionals: licensed and certified therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, and social workers.



And while programs have a vested interest in serving families, ASTART has a vested interest in spreading misinformation. They're there specifically to network all the goofballs who think programs are the devil. They aren't going to tell the truth about how effective progreams are for all those kids that the states have failed to serve. ASTART is not researching; they are collecting and dissemintating propaganda. "

I sit here wondering. Who are these goofballs? Why do they exist? Why are they willing to spend so much time and energy denouncing something they know nothing about? What purpose do they have in disseminating propaganda?

I sit here wondering. Why is the teen help industry so defensive? Why doesn't Microsoft, or Ford have advocates on the internet calling their critics 'goofballs?' Why is it that only the defenders of this industry deem it necessary to toss ad-hominems at anyone who critiques or disagrees with their methods?

Oh wait, Cheney does this, too. But then, Cheney thinks it is okay to hold prisoners in secret prisons and torture them. Or is that the teen help industry?

[Antigen]

On 2005-11-21 18:46:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

Oh wait, Cheney does this, too. But then, Cheney thinks it is okay to hold prisoners in secret prisons and torture them. Or is that the teen help industry?

http://TheStraights.com/gop.htm

If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the
government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees.

--President Bill Clinton

[Anonymous]

I have often wondered the same thing. Why are these program advocates so belligerent toward anyone who disagrees with them? Especially people who have been to the programs and are only voicing their personal experiences! There are simply too many survivor stories with too many common threads to be fabrications. Besides, what do these former victims have to gain by lying? It's pretty obvious what the program advocates have to gain...big bucks. Maybe they would be more believeable if they weren't getting rich off of these poor kids and their misguided parents. It's really disgusting.

[Anonymous]

Yeh, right up there with religion and politics. People don't like to have their beliefs challenged. If they really looked at the situation they may have to admit some things which could be embarrasing and painful.
Easier to roll the dice- send Johnny off to strangers to 'fix'- and tell the folks at the club that he's away at boarding school.

Nothing really new. People with money (primarily) were sending their kids off long before the industry emerged, but instead of military schools and religious reform homes, we now have 'emotional growth' gulags. Many hold the belief that they are somehow better because they are 'therapeutic'. Far as I can tell it's the same ol means to an end.

With one possible difference. In all the years of religious/military placements were there 150+ deaths? I'm sure there were a few, but the industry has averaged about 6 per year since 1980. And that says nothing of the unreported 'accidents' and injuries. Should 'Emotional Growth' carry such a high risk in terms of danger to life and limb?

[Anonymous]

You negelected to mention that the success of these "emotional growth schools" is  in using the devoted parents promote what they "believe saved their kid's life.  

Holy molly it saved their lives. Lets do the  "chicken dance"  !

Tell it to some one who doesnt know better....

[Antigen]

On 2005-11-22 08:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

With one possible difference. In all the years of religious/military placements were there 150+ deaths? I'm sure there were a few, but the industry has averaged about 6 per year since 1980. And that says nothing of the unreported 'accidents' and injuries. Should 'Emotional Growth' carry such a high risk in terms of danger to life and limb?

Also, compare the size of the body and the nature of their activities. How many recruits enter boot camp every year? How many die in training accidents while practicing combat skills w/ real planes and choppers and such? Some, obviously. But how many as a part of the whole? Same for good old fashioned reform school. I've read horror stories very similar to those that come out of the nuevo troubled parent industry, except in one regard.

Everyone knows that reform school punitive. The "therapeutic" label, to borrow a byte of psychobabbal, is passive aggressive abuse. Notice how frequently Program believers fall back on "Well, you need to go back and get a little more therapy"? I just can't tell you how terrifying those kind of words can be to someone who has had about all the "help" they can stand.

It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it, are among its worst and least pleasant examples

--Charles Dickens

[TheWho]

On 2005-11-22 08:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Yeh, right up there with religion and politics. People don't like to have their beliefs challenged. If they really looked at the situation they may have to admit some things which could be embarrasing and painful.

Easier to roll the dice- send Johnny off to strangers to 'fix'- and tell the folks at the club that he's away at boarding school.



Nothing really new. People with money (primarily) were sending their kids off long before the industry emerged, but instead of military schools and religious reform homes, we now have 'emotional growth' gulags. Many hold the belief that they are somehow better because they are 'therapeutic'. Far as I can tell it's the same ol means to an end.



With one possible difference. In all the years of religious/military placements were there 150+ deaths? I'm sure there were a few, but the industry has averaged about 6 per year since 1980. And that says nothing of the unreported 'accidents' and injuries. Should 'Emotional Growth' carry such a high risk in terms of danger to life and limb?

"

Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless.  Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year.  Is that good or bad?  How many are saved? How many kids die in public or private schools per year?  How many kids die that run away or drop out?  How many kids die in car accidents?  More than 6 per year?  Should'nt we be shutting down the car industry then.  How about drug overdoses?  More than 6 per year?  Should we sue the parents because they didnt intervene?  Why isnt anyone slamming the drug dealers or putting their names up here?  Dont kids die because of them?  Is it more than 6 per year? How many of the drug dealers are accredited or offer diplomas?  How many do better in school because of it?
I agree with improving the schools or any institution where kids are involved.  We should always have the pressure on to protect the kids, but lets keep it real and fact based.
my 2 pennies ..........

[Anonymous]

Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad? How many are saved? How many kids die in public or private schools per year? How many kids die that run away or drop out? How many kids die in car accidents? More than 6 per year? Should'nt we be shutting down the car industry then. How about drug overdoses? More than 6 per year? Should we sue the parents because they didnt intervene? Why isnt anyone slamming the drug dealers or putting their names up here? Dont kids die because of them? Is it more than 6 per year? How many of the drug dealers are accredited or offer diplomas? How many do better in school because of it?
I agree with improving the schools or any institution where kids are involved. We should always have the pressure on to protect the kids, but lets keep it real and fact based.
my 2 pennies ..........

I agree, we need to equate program officials and supporters with drug dealers. This is a very real analogy. They are pushers for an evil which infects it's victims in a way they will shrivel up into a shell of themsleves before it's all over. Unless you get out early... and don't get addicted to the program. Unfortunately, most do. Program supporters and officials are very much like drug dealers. They will do anything for money, namely harming others. The people who do these types of works are ones with no moral scruples to keep them from pursuing their fortune at the expense of our young souls.

[Anonymous]

Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad? How many are saved? How many kids die in public or private schools per year? How many kids die that run away or drop out? How many kids die in car accidents? More than 6 per year? Should'nt we be shutting down the car industry then. How about drug overdoses? More than 6 per year? Should we sue the parents because they didnt intervene? Why isnt anyone slamming the drug dealers or putting their names up here? Dont kids die because of them? Is it more than 6 per year? How many of the drug dealers are accredited or offer diplomas? How many do better in school because of it?
I agree with improving the schools or any institution where kids are involved. We should always have the pressure on to protect the kids, but lets keep it real and fact based.
my 2 pennies ..........

The kids who die are locked up, with the purpose of keeping them alive. They literally have NO access to anything dangerous. Not even shoelaces. So comparing a death rate between a lock-down situation compared to kids driving, or anything else is completely innacurate. For an industry that is supposed to be saving lives, they sure do kill a lot of them. How? These deaths are not caused by falls, car accidents or drug overdoses. These deaths are caused by staff members, MURDERING!!!! (stop calling them accidents) young children. Your mind must be warped if you cannot see this. How about this comparison: a teacher follows a student out into the halls, calls on his radio for 6 other teachers to come and they all tackle, repeatedly hit and sit on the student for 30 minutes. Why? He didn't ask permission to use the bathroom. When the principal arrives 30 minutes later, and they get off of him, the student is dead. Would you send your kid to that school, let alone exact same classroom? Well, YOU DID and continue to do so!! You compartmentalize away the obvious facts of these deaths. Common sense people. Common sense. Stop justifying the murder of these innocent young teens. It's disgusting.  ::noway::  ::noway::  ::noway::  ::puke::  What if one of these dead kids was yours? Would you still support the program.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: With one possible difference. In all the years of religious/military placements were there 150+ deaths? I'm sure there were a few, but the industry has averaged about 6 per year since 1980. And that says nothing of the unreported 'accidents' and injuries. Should 'Emotional Growth' carry such a high risk in terms of danger to life and limb?


I'm calling BS on your numbers there. Six a year? Sorry, but no way, and anyone with a lick of sense knows it. And spare me the fake numbers and names on "survivor" websites.

[Anonymous]

I'm calling BS on your numbers there. Six a year? Sorry, but no way, and anyone with a lick of sense knows it. And spare me the fake numbers and names on "survivor" websites.

try the search function dipshit. programmies like you have been trying this argument for a long... long time. im sure the parents of the dead kids you call fake really appreciate it tho.  :tup:

[TheWho]

On 2005-11-22 10:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad? How many are saved? How many kids die in public or private schools per year? How many kids die that run away or drop out? How many kids die in car accidents? More than 6 per year? Should'nt we be shutting down the car industry then. How about drug overdoses? More than 6 per year? Should we sue the parents because they didnt intervene? Why isnt anyone slamming the drug dealers or putting their names up here? Dont kids die because of them? Is it more than 6 per year? How many of the drug dealers are accredited or offer diplomas? How many do better in school because of it?

I agree with improving the schools or any institution where kids are involved. We should always have the pressure on to protect the kids, but lets keep it real and fact based.

my 2 pennies ..........

The kids who die are locked up, with the purpose of keeping them alive. They literally have NO access to anything dangerous. Not even shoelaces. So comparing a death rate between a lock-down situation compared to kids driving, or anything else is completely innacurate. For an industry that is supposed to be saving lives, they sure do kill a lot of them. How? These deaths are not caused by falls, car accidents or drug overdoses. These deaths are caused by staff members, MURDERING!!!! (stop calling them accidents) young children. Your mind must be warped if you cannot see this. How about this comparison: a teacher follows a student out into the halls, calls on his radio for 6 other teachers to come and they all tackle, repeatedly hit and sit on the student for 30 minutes. Why? He didn't ask permission to use the bathroom. When the principal arrives 30 minutes later, and they get off of him, the student is dead. Would you send your kid to that school, let alone exact same classroom? Well, YOU DID and continue to do so!! You compartmentalize away the obvious facts of these deaths. Common sense people. Common sense. Stop justifying the murder of these innocent young teens. It's disgusting.  ::noway::  ::noway::  ::noway::  ::puke::  What if one of these dead kids was yours? Would you still support the program.  "

You should go back and reread my post I was talking about STATISTICS, not individual cases.  We could sit here all day and voice individual occurrences for and against, for example I am sure there are kids who died from "well intended" drug dealers who were trying to help the kid through a tough time with a little pick me up,  but anyway my point is how do the schools measure up STATISTICALLY.  If a child dies from teachers sitting on him or her in a public school does that automatically justify sending kids away to boarding schools to keep them safe? NO WAY!!!!  But I am sure there are those who would react to the individual occurrences.  Kids die everywhere, what we need to do,as responsible people, is to find out who are placing our kids at the most risk and stop them.  Are they Drug Dealers, Teachers, Boarding schools?  All I am saying is lets look at the data and place our efforts there.

[Anonymous]

If a child dies from teachers sitting on him or her in a public school does that automatically justify sending kids away to boarding schools to keep them safe?

It certainly justifies parents and students not wanting to attend that school, especially if that teacher was still employed and no changes of policy implemented. Let's say that school is real, and a forum exists to discuss specific schools where students who were wronged by said schools can post. Is this so outrageous?

my point is how do the schools measure up STATISTICALLY

You think these programs keep statistics?  :lol: Usually deaths are found through local newspaper articles about the death. Unregulated schools hardly keep statistics. Look how popular this board is, compared to struggling losers. That's enough statistics for me!  :em:

[TheWho]

On 2005-11-22 11:04:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

If a child dies from teachers sitting on him or her in a public school does that automatically justify sending kids away to boarding schools to keep them safe?

It certainly justifies parents and students not wanting to attend that school, especially if that teacher was still employed and no changes of policy implemented. Let's say that school is real, and a forum exists to discuss specific schools where students who were wronged by said schools can post. Is this so outrageous?

my point is how do the schools measure up STATISTICALLY

You think these programs keep statistics?  :lol: Usually deaths are found through local newspaper articles about the death. Unregulated schools hardly keep statistics. Look how popular this board is, compared to struggling losers. That's enough statistics for me!  :em: "

So your the type that follows whats popular, I need more than that to make decisions for myself and family.  Sorry you are so angry, I am sure you have good reason, but following something because it is popular isnt going to benefit you in the long run, I've been there.  Do some homework (pros and cons) and base your decisions on some hard data, especially if it is an important decision or issue.  The data exists, you just have to do a little work to find it.
Okay "Slap" I'll stop preaching.

[Anonymous]

***Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad?

Who the fuck are you? Why should anyone believe that you ?know? those statistics are misleading and meaningless? In your haste to respond you misunderstood. 150+ kids have died in programs/boot camps/wilderness since 1980. That?s an average of 6 per year. You obviously  have seen the list of dead. Prove any name on any list is fake. Google the kids names and read the articles that return. Real simple, but time consuming, if you are vaguely interested in the truth.

Doesn?t matter a whit ?how many are saved?.  Parents know the risks associated with driving, football, etc. They and/or their kid choose to participate in those ?risky? activities? just as they choose to eat McDonalds and risk heart disease.

The point that elludes you is:
NO FORM OF THERAPY should subject kids to the risk of injury or death. Period. There is no justification for it.

I wonder how many parents mused, ?He might get killed in a therapeutic treatment environment, but the risk seems less than dying on the streets? I?m guessing that not one of them contemplated their kid being killed in an ?emotional growth? program.

Yes, by all means, let?s keep it real and fact based. Please post up the names you feel are fake because I would love to rip you to shreds. Your fucking arrogant, know-it-all program attitude is disgusting. Show some respect for the dead and their families.