missoulian/10*24*05/ SCL &self regulation

[Anonymous]

Blah blah blah!!!!!!! I need atleast a full 24 hours to read through all that hoopla. All I know is that I was in a WWASP program, and I resented my parents for sending me there, and I got zero out of it. Now the punishments are worse, and it's not the right way of treating teenagers who are in emotional distress. So.........that's it, I'm going to chain myself to CCM until it's fixed. Am I going alone?

[Anonymous]

http://www.wwaspsinfo.net/springcreek.html

[Antigen]

On 2005-10-27 08:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I'm really getting tired of trying to do things the right way. All these years of doing it by the book, wwasps is still running, and even expanding. We play by the rules, they don't, and it's getting us absolutely fucking knowhere. I'm sure there is something that we can do, that's NOT violent, but that will bring media attention to these places. Any ideas???"

I know just what you mean. I can't even bring myself to stuff down all the details and minutia because I think it largely misses the point.

Does a parent, or anyone for that matter, have the right to imprison a kid w/o due process for the express purpose of forcing a change in their beliefs and behavior?

I think not. I think it's unfortunate that sometimes kids and parents don't get along. God knows it cut me to the core of my very soul when my daughter was acting like she hated me, the family and everything we stood for. But I never thought I had any right, or any reason, to force her to come around to my way of thinking.

And how about a rational, evidence based risk/benefit analysis? According to industry luminary, Ken Kay, only out of control clowns would even ask such a question.

I don't think anyone directly involved in this boondogle is anywhere near able to entertain the most important questions, let alone come up w/ them all by their feeble minded selves.

you Momma is a big fat's ________
--Leroy Brown

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[Anonymous]

On 2005-10-27 21:05:00, chaking wrote:

"Thanks for telling me what I witnessed is false... But I don't think you have clue...

The only reason the panel was made up in the first place was for the children's benefit... Of course there are a bunch of stipulations but I fail to see your point...



As for the Department of Health and Human Services... At least they have some people trained in this field... Unlike the Department of Labor and Industry who are the ones now given the assignment of monitoring...



But whatever... You want to use the tired talking points of Rove in this situation... It doesn't apply.. Who said to make up another agency? Nobody said that... Why are you saying it?



And how can you argue that giving the programs a week's notice before an inspection will assure compliance with anything?"

"As for the Department of Health and Human Services... At least they have some people trained in this field... Unlike the Department of Labor and Industry who are the ones now given the assignment of monitoring... "

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. The department of health has no one trained in this field. They don't have a clue what it's about. They, like so many, assume this is a medical issue. It's pretty outdated theory that assumes everyone who makes a mistake is sick. It's not the case with most program kids. If they are sick, send them to an RTC or a state-run medical facility. If they and their families need to improve communication, learn how to recognize and change their own unproductive patterns, and overall learn some tolerance for each other, then an alternative program may help.

The department of labor licenses all the areas that are similar to programs: addiction counselors, psychologists, social workers, etc. They've done it for years, they're set up to do it, and they generally do these things better, at a tiny fraction of the cost the health department does it.

[chaking]

Wow... you make your own point...
"It's pretty outdated theory that assumes everyone who makes a mistake is sick." <-- So why is it that a kid who smnoked weed once, or who isn't getting along with their parents at the time and so forth, is supposedly in need of Behavior Modification? And when we are talking about programs that are either "therapeutic" (as advertised) or a behavior mod program, then we are talking about getting in the head of the kids... That is not something an untrained person should be getting into... Especially when we are supposedly talking about kids "with problems"... So basically, yes, the DPHSS should be the one watching over... If you look into the DPHSS you will see that they already have boards such as: # Child Support Advisory Council
# Children's Special Health Services Advisory Committee
# Children's System of Care Planning Committee (SOC's Committee)
# Children's Therapeutic Group Home Task Force
# Children's Trust Fund
That seems to me like they might have a little bit of experience in this field...
Now lets look at the Department of Labor and Industry's statement: "The Montana Department of Labor and Industry promotes the well-being of Montana's workers, employers, and citizens, and upholds their rights and responsibilities. We are committed to being responsive to communities and businesses at the local level. " hmm... nothing in there about children... Only thing in there is stuff to keep businesses running... I wonder why you support them?

Basically bub, your agenda is clear... You are pro-WWASP and you propagandize this board to try and convince others who don't have as much knowledge about WWASP as we do, that WWASP is wonderful... That seems to be your sole purpose... So why in the world should anyone believe a damn thing that you spout off? You pass up the dangers for a few bucks (or if you are a parent, to keep yourself feeling good about sending your child away to a bunch of untrained money hungry creeps)... good for you... I'm sure you feel all warm and fuzzy after a nice propaganda campaign...huh?

[chaking]

oh oh... one more thing there buddy...

?I?m still of the belief that oversight has to be done through the Department of Public Heath and Human Services,? says Great Falls Sen. Trudi Schmidt, who offered her own version of an oversight bill in the state Senate that was rejected. ?This is the first time that the Department of Labor is regulating a youth services program.?

So much for that being the Dept. of Labor and Industry's forte

[Anonymous]

Does anyone have any current information on the lawsuit filed in Florida on behalf of the girl who had a broken jaw from Tranquility Bay, Jamaica and then she was sent to Spring Creek Lodge,Montana.  ? (both wwasp programs)

How is the case coming? David Pollack filed.They were on Montel Williams..Any one know.

[Anonymous]

They were trying to win on the jurisdiction issue. Anyone heard of the outcome of that? Also, anyone know if they filed in federal court?

[Anonymous]

"So why is it that a kid who smnoked weed once, or who isn't getting along with their parents at the time and so forth, is supposedly in need of Behavior Modification? "

Chakin, You swallowed another myth here. Kids who attend such schools and programs do so because they have a long history of failure. That's even in the bill, HB 628. These are not the ones who smoked a little weed for experimentation.

And re Trudi Schmidt's remarks: That's not the only thing she got wrong, but you can check it out (she didn't bother). The dept. of labor already licenses two other programs, and has for a long time. Call and ask them. Check out their website. Read all the other transcripts. Do something besides relying on myths and uninformed politicians, please!

 :roll:

[chaking]

Well well... I think I laid out a list of what the DPHSS already does... are you blind or are you just convienently missing that?
As for the kids who are in these places having a long history... yeah right... I'm sure a few do, but I remember far too many kids who literally had only smoked weed once or twice, or who had even just not been responsive to their parents and so forth...  Do you have any data showing that these kids are exceptional to every other teenager? nope? I bet you don't...
As for the Schmidt comment... I think I'll go with her word and all the other facts and the fact I was there over your hearsay whioch is backed by absolutely nothing that I know of right now... thanks though

[Antigen]

On 2005-10-29 09:29:00, Anonymous wrote:


And re Trudi Schmidt's remarks: That's not the only thing she got wrong, but you can check it out (she didn't bother). The dept. of labor already licenses two other programs, and has for a long time. Call and ask them. Check out their website. Read all the other transcripts. Do something besides relying on myths and uninformed politicians, please!



 :roll: "

She didn't get it wrong. Here, read it again more slowly.

?I?m still of the belief that oversight has to be done through the Department of Public Heath and Human Services,? says Great Falls Sen. Trudi Schmidt, who offered her own version of an oversight bill in the state Senate that was rejected. ?This is the first time that the Department of Labor is regulating a youth services program.?

She's not saying that DL doesn't currently license these programs. She's saying that they do, indeed; that it's the first time she's ever heard of such a thing and, I think, that it's entirely inapropriate.

So... what is it? Are these kids all strung out psychopaths in need of behavior mod, or is it just an innocent little work skills and job training program?

Ya' can't have it both ways.

A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

[chaking]

"I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. The department of health has no one trained in this field. They don't have a clue what it's about. They, like so many, assume this is a medical issue. It's pretty outdated theory that assumes everyone who makes a mistake is sick. It's not the case with most program kids. "

 <--- I'm assuming this is the same person who said :

"Kids who attend such schools and programs do so because they have a long history of failure."

... Maybe the same IP addresses? I'm just guessing, but yeah that argument is obviously flawed somewhere... [ This Message was edited by: chaking on 2005-10-29 15:44 ]

[Anonymous]

I doub't that who does the job is more important than the quality of the standards that are set and to ensure that kids are receiving quality care. This board should be given a chance to prove itself and not judged prior to the completion of their work. Many boards that do important and respected work, such as social workers, medical examiners, licensed addiction counselors and nurses do so with the admimistrative support of the Dept of labor.

[katfish]

On 2005-11-05 18:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I doub't that who does the job is more important than the quality of the standards that are set and to ensure that kids are receiving quality care. This board should be given a chance to prove itself and not judged prior to the completion of their work. Many boards that do important and respected work, such as social workers, medical examiners, licensed addiction counselors and nurses do so with the admimistrative support of the Dept of labor. "

That's absurd, the efficacy of such programs have not even been proven- certtainly you're not suggesting that area of expertise is irrlelevant in terms of ability to determine what i sbest for childrens mental health- which includes behavioral and emotional problems... many kids are being institutionalized uneccedarily AND it's the fox gaurding the hen house kind of a thing- i quote that from somewhere...  How on earth can anyone suggest that what is in the best intersts of youth is to have individuals who have a vested financial interest in maintianing the status quo-- though there exists no data to back up maintaining the status quo and many young people are stating their mental health is being seriously compromised...?

There is NO valid reason these facilites should remain unregulated- what are they trying to avoid if they claim to treat youth ethically?  Certain things have been proven to work by MHP, and ethical standards have been established for legitimate reason. Things like access to advocates, ability to contest placement, appropriate restraints procedures, evidence based  treatment...  
Simply b/c facilities wish to mistreat children in the name of care and set standard to allow them to do so doesn't mean we should accept it.

[Anonymous]

I know that this is really outdated, but I was googling my name and it appeared in this forum. I have been reading the topics and replies. I am a graduate from one of the schools that pushed for HB628 and agree with a comment that DPHHS has no experience with programs like these. They do not have trust in most people and think that because there have been some cases of child abuse all must be that way. Under the regulation of DPHHS a student would lose their individuality that they are able to aqcuire at schools such as these that are home based and are not RTC's. Do your research before making these assumptions.