Why some deserved to be there (clarification)

[Botched Programming]

On 2005-10-10 12:59:00, 85 Day Jerk wrote:

"The program started out with kids in group actually having needle marks and lung damage from huffing chemicals and what not.  These were the hard core cases who really WOULD wind up dead-insane-or-in jail."

By the time I got there I had been in jails and was probably on my way to prison, I had guns drawn on me and I was carrying one myself. And I had been in the pits of hell being on the streets, but none of this constitutes me being put in a center where I was abused for an indefinite amount of time. At least if I were in jail or prison I had a set time frame to be there unless I really fucked up somehow.

I would not have been kept away from my family, I would have had visitation or at least been able to make phone calls home. Nor would I have had to put up a big chunk of my small inheiretence to pay for my admission to the " Abuse Center "

I personally feel that no matter what a person done " WE DID NOT DESERVE TO BE THERE. "

[TheWho]

On 2005-10-11 12:49:00, DOC SLOW wrote:

"

On 2005-10-10 12:59:00, 85 Day Jerk wrote:


"The program started out with kids in group actually having needle marks and lung damage from huffing chemicals and what not.  These were the hard core cases who really WOULD wind up dead-insane-or-in jail."

By the time I got there I had been in jails and was probably on my way to prison, I had guns drawn on me and I was carrying one myself. And I had been in the pits of hell being on the streets, but none of this constitutes me being put in a center where I was abused for an indefinite amount of time. At least if I were in jail or prison I had a set time frame to be there unless I really fucked up somehow.



I would not have been kept away from my family, I would have had visitation or at least been able to make phone calls home. Nor would I have had to put up a big chunk of my small inheiretence to pay for my admission to the " Abuse Center "



I personally feel that no matter what a person done " WE DID NOT DESERVE TO BE THERE. ""

If my kid was in your position I would have done the same thing.  The chances of getting any real help in prison is nil, its a revolving door.  If someone approached me with a program which had a slight chance of working I would jump all over it.  and, no, I probably wouldnt spend six months researching whether or not it was a perfect fit, if my kid was carrying a gun and needed to be taken down by police I doubt whether a group hug from his family would right everything and a decision would be needed quickly.  At least you can look back and know your parents cared enough to avoid prison that time, they could have pocketed the money and spent it on themselves if they didnt care.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-10-11 14:47:00, Anonymous wrote:

If my kid was in your position I would have done the same thing.  The chances of getting any real help in prison is nil, its a revolving door.  If someone approached me with a program which had a slight chance of working I would jump all over it.

That's precisely what the programs count on...desperate parents who will try anything regardless of what the consequences to the child in question would be.  And that doesn't even speak about where the hell these parents were before the kid became a 'gun toting boogey man'.  Were they just oblivious for all that time that this boogey kid was simmering???


 

and, no, I probably wouldnt spend six months researching whether or not it was a perfect fit,

Shame on you then.  It would be your duty as a parent to find out what kind of a place you'd be sending your kid to....and it wouldn't take six months of research.

[Anonymous]

I think maybe some children actually had drug problems, but no one deserved to be treated as we were.   I think that is what the 85 day meant.  Is that true bobby?

[Anonymous]

On 2005-10-11 14:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I think maybe some children actually had drug problems, but no one deserved to be treated as we were.   I think that is what the 85 day meant.  Is that true bobby?"

Not according to his first post in this thread...

Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#139613

As to whether or not they deserved it, the people I seen in my first days there did. They were upper crust white bread punks that had gone their whole lives without a serious ass whooping. They had no values, no goals and no directions. Most went to private schools.

[Antigen]

I quite agree. Desperation is their key marketing ploy. That's why they invest so heavily in propaganda; it yields a very high return.

What's more...

On 2005-10-11 14:47:00, Anonymous wrote:

 I doubt whether a group hug from his family would right everything and a decision would be needed quickly.

We've been watching too much tv these last couple of generations. We loooooves our stories, don't we children? There are to obvious problems w/ the logic of the sales pitch.

Whether or not someone needs to be taken down by police is almost entirely subjective. Almost. It's pretty objective after the takedown and if and when the accused has had a FAIR trial and been convicted of an actual crime. Then it's pretty objective.

When you hire a transport company to abduct your kid and then pay a private prison to confine and, possibly, torment him, what are you really getting that you can't get from the public prison system? The primary difference is that the public sector at least makes a polite courtsey to due process. But if you've got big bags of money to kick down, why you can just buy your way out of that little nagging problem.

Trust me, juvenile detention was less harmful than Straight. And I was in Macon and Clay counties in Georgia. Neither one offered any real help. But then, I had never asked for or wanted any. At least in detention, if someone treats you in any way close to the way we tormented each other in Straight, THEY would be shipped off to the psyche ward, you would regain your peace and quiet.

This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
         
http://www.aidoann.com/guncontrol.html' target='_new'>Adolph Hitler

[TheWho]

On 2005-10-11 14:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-10-11 14:47:00, Anonymous wrote:


If my kid was in your position I would have done the same thing.  The chances of getting any real help in prison is nil, its a revolving door.  If someone approached me with a program which had a slight chance of working I would jump all over it.

That's precisely what the programs count on...desperate parents who will try anything regardless of what the consequences to the child in question would be.  And that doesn't even speak about where the hell these parents were before the kid became a 'gun toting boogey man'.  Were they just oblivious for all that time that this boogey kid was simmering???





 

and, no, I probably wouldnt spend six months researching whether or not it was a perfect fit,

Shame on you then.  It would be your duty as a parent to find out what kind of a place you'd be sending your kid to....and it wouldn't take six months of research.



 "

***That's precisely what the programs count on...desperate parents who will try anything regardless of what the consequences to the child in question would be.***

Desperate is right, as caring parents should be, in a situation like that.  Again, knee jerk reaction to keeping a kid out of prison and maybe getting the help he needed. no shame in that.  They could have hung up the phone and went back to watching the ballgame.
I guess we could assume prison would have been a better choice?  We should compare statistics first, but again that takes time.  How many people do you think take the time to investigate prison life before sending their kid there, how much help he will get etc.?

***And that doesn't even speak about where the hell these parents were before the kid became a 'gun toting boogey man'.  Were they just oblivious for all that time that this boogey kid was simmering??? ***

We could all assume, but only a few people know the answer to that, they could have been the best parents in the world or the worse, but probably somewhere in-between.  Regardless of where the parents were, the kid needed help and his folks stepped up to the challenge, good decision or bad.  The world is full of people who dont care he was and is lucky they cared enough to do something or to atleast try.

[Antigen]

Please read my response prior to yours. They crossed in the mail.

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.

--Mark Twain

[Woof-a-Doof]

I was there at the time 85DJ spoke/wrote about. Historically he is pretty damn accurate. Spooky accurate. That said, I see this hub-bub all spinning around a question of semantics.

Deserving to be There -vs- Needing Help

I can think of 3-4 individuals. A cousin that came from a Mental Institution. I had a newcomer once that ran head first into the bedroom wall (concrete) consecutively for about 2 hours. I recall Chris Castler getting his head thwacked because he pushed a girl to hard, (she pleaded for Lithium) and he belittled her, degraded her and generally fucked with her head...he got to close and she caught him with a left hook. I can also remember a guy didn't come in one day. The following day he came into group and was confronted for sexually molesting a child (a baby) the day he was gone.

Clearly folks then, just like at any time, Needed Help. Did they Deserve what they  endured? Obviously not, none of us did. Did some of us Need Help of some kind...possibly. But it was not Straight Inc. My parents (mom) wanted help for me, my dad was following the stories in the St. Pete Times and knew full well what was going on and sent me anyway. But Straight was not the place, I would have profitted from. Obviously.

Some one wrote about memories. If Straight was a 2-4 year experience as it was for many of us, Straight Inc is all that we have for memories. When I look back at my teen years, all I really can see is Straight Inc. I feel I was robbed, an age was stolen from me. Not all of my "peers" stole from me. There are some people who I felt very close to and a smile will cross my face when I think of a few. Does that mean I am a Straight supporter? No.

I recently re-established contact with yet another cousin. I hadn't seen him in 27yrs (roughly). I hadnt seen him since before Straight. The subject of our time in Straight came up and intially he responded in a rather quip manner...not bubbly, nor enthusiastic but it was meant to convey an optimistic responce. I pushed a lil further, and he abruptly said. "I don't think much about it" but minutes later he went into great detail of his ordeal in Straight. We were both pissed that we had no memories together as teenagers. I was seen as a "screw up" by the time he got put there. I was also not allowed to attend my own grandfathers funeral. Did I deserve that, no. Did I need that, no. Did I need some kinda help? You betcha. Was Straight the answer, cetainly and hopefully now obvious, no.

I knew 85DJ from the day he walked thru the doors. At the time he earned his moniker he was a classic "jerk", we hadn't yet heard the term "misbehavor" or whatever. He was a foster brother, after straight we were roomates. He is/was no better/worse than any of us. I personally don't think he set about to imply he was any different. Probably the only difference between him and someone who went thru Straight 10-12 years ago is that he got there before them. I don't think 85DJ meant the word "Deserved" as came across. But I dunno...hopefully, still more "clarifacation" come.


Sorry for the babble...puff puff pass

[Anonymous]

Back to the original question...did they deserve to be there?  Did they deserve to have the abuses heaped upon them?  You can debate the efficacy of the jail or detention all you want but it really has no bearing at all on whether or not these kids deserved to be in a program that systematically abused them.  

I'm not saying that all parents were uncaring assholes (although there were plenty like that) but maybe they should have turned off the ballgame BEFORE things got to that extreme.  I've got kids.  I know first hand that they do some frightening things.  Mine are grown now and I'm absolutely positive there are things they have done that if I knew about would scare the living shit out of me.....BUT....I believe I was paying a helluva lot more attention than my parents and many other program parents ever did.  Shit, the grandparents of my kids (I married another program person so we had a double whammy with the grandparents) became so incensed over what they considered to be abhorent behavior from one of my kids that they suggested and pushed for a while for me to send her somewhere.  Funny how now she seems to have outgrown her stupidity and is doing fairly well for herself.  What if I had fallen for the hype?  What if I had allowed myself to become that desperate?  I shudder to think what would have happened to her.

[starry-eyed pirate]

It seems to me that maybe these are 2 different points.  i mean Jerk is talkin' about hardcore herion addicts and such, on the verge of death or what ??  On the verge of what ??  Really ??  i don' fuckin' know !!  Pro'ly jus' teenagers with no LEGAL RIGHTS by which to defend themselves.  i don' know. That is some fucked up shit and i only know what happened where i was.

Such is life... as i' heard somewher...

While the other poster cat is talkin' 'bout abuse of kids who weren'
t in nearly that kin' of a life or death situation.  Fuck All Authority !!

[Carmel]

I agree with Woof....its more the question of needing help versus deserving abusive treatment help.

I dont disagree that some people need help, even intervention in some way.  But there are so many ways that Straight took that idea and twisted it, drew it out and forced long term intervention, which is ludicrous given the fact that if someone dosent want help, you cant force them to take it.  The reasons why go on and on as we all know.

[starry-eyed pirate]

On 2005-10-11 17:00:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:

"It seems to me that maybe these are 2 different points.  i mean Jerk is talkin' about hardcore herion addicts and such, on the verge of death or what ??  On the verge of what ??  Really ??  i don' fuckin' know !!  Pro'ly jus' teenagers with no LEGAL RIGHTS by which to defend themselves.  i don' know. That is some fucked up shit and i only know what happened where i was.



Such is life... as i' heard somewher...



While the other poster cat is talkin' 'bout abuse of kids who weren'

t in nearly that kin' of a life or death situation.  Fuck All Authority !!"

And let me say before i find myself confronted, that heroine is cool with me. Drugs are jus' a tool.   :skull:  :wave:

[Anonymous]

Jerk is a talented writer. He also has a phenomenal memory. He has also started a good topic for debate. Thumbs up, Jerk, You done good. People take offense easily because you says what you means. You didn't like those spoiled kids. I didn't like hardly anyone in Straight either.

[Anonymous]

Nobody likes a spoiled child but that doesn't mean they deserve to be beaten, ridiculed and to have their emotional self whacked off at the knees.  That's my beef with what he stated.