my friend was in the seed, and now he is dead, thread.

[GregFL]

Big Frank, died of a drug overdose two years ago, was a poster of this forum.

RIP Frank!

[GregFL]

Ray Kienzle, brother of Bob Kienzle, brother in law of Libby and Seed graduate, died several years ago.

I never knew Ray personally but dialogued with someone close to him that was deeply disapointed that Bob K. and Libby Didn't come to the funeral.

RIP Ray.

[Anonymous]

This info is somewhat outdated, but Bob hasn't spoken to his mom in years either, which broke her heart, she never did anything to him but raise him the best way she knew how, all things considered.  I can't remember now if she's alive or not, but he broke her heart and devastated her spirit when he abandoned her for total commitment to Libby and the Seed.

[Antigen]

Yeah, I never knew these people. But I did speak w/ his sister one time a few years back. It wasn't just the funeral. They knew Ray didn't have a lot of time. So the family came together to spend some time with him while they could. Their sister was looking for help in getting a message through to Bob to come join them. But either the Seedlings were not giving him his messages or he just wasn't returning calls.

I wish I had had some way to help her. It was so sad. I sincerely hope the guy will check in w/ his family now that the Seed is gone.

If God has spoken, why is the world not convinced?
--Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet

[cleveland]

I lived with Ray K. in a suburban house in Sunrise, I think. It was a nice place with a screened in pool in the back. Ray's brother Bob lived there too, as well as Steve H. and Jeff P. They had a siamese cat named Buckwheat. I moved in with Jack H. and Craig D., both of whom worked with me at Broward Medical Center. This was about 1980 or so.

This was one of the nicest places I had ever lived. Having a pool was great, and we had cable! Ray was the ringleader. Being a former staff member, he had a lot of credibility. He had been a hard core drug user, as had Steve, who had lost a couple of fingers by shooting up. Ray was a redneck, and still wore his big ole cowboy hat and boots and proudly listened to Country music. Bob was the slick, selfish pretty boy, Steve was the comedian, Jeff was the brilliant burnout from a wealthy family. Jack was Felix Ungerer and Craig was his side kick. I was awed by Bob, and to a lesser extent Steve. Jeff was someone I always wanted to be. He had become a master boat carpenter and ran the business out of our garage. He was always working on some intricate woodwork for Art's boat, and this gave him a lot of respect and attention (and also meant he didn't have to do a lot of time hanging around with newcomers or going to raps).

Jeff had restored an old upright piano which sat in our dining room. AS far as I know, no one knew how to play it. One day, Ray sat down and pounded out some boogie woogie and ragtime music - pretty good, and totally unexpected from this self-described redneck.

This apartment had a lot more freedom than I was used to. Ray and Steve were pretty intolerant of rules, and we used to make fun of raps and Seed rules to some extent. We also flaunted the rules a bit, watching video porn (until staff found out).

But breaking the rules went further with Ray. He ended up dating another staff member and former stewardess named Laura (who had once turned down a date with Burt Reynolds because he was 'too short') which ended up in huge controversy. Ray was found out and booted from the Seed, and he turned into an 'anti-Seedling' - he'd drive by the building screaming the seed sucks, he graffiti'd Art's house and car, I think, and did some other outrageous stuff. I will never forget posing as 'fishermen' with Jeff P. (complete with rods and reels) on the intercostal so we could watch Art's house in case Ray came by during this time.

So, I have great memories of Ray.

[wtaylorg]

Hey Cleveland:
When I used to stay the night at the Seed it always seemed to be with Jeff P. He always played the piano in the back office, jazz piano.

I always idolized/envied the Kienzle's because it seemed that the rules we had to obey didn't apply to them. It seemed like they mostly did what they wanted.
I remember Jim H, in much the same way, but he was gone by the time I moved down in '82.

[cleveland]

I never heard Jeff play - too busy in the shop doing boat stuff. He was a genius.

The other kid who played piano - now I am blanking on his name. Dark hair, blue eyes - very nice guy. I think he stuck around til the end.

And I worked wiyh Jim H, and Cindy, who he later married. I loved that guy, and yes, he was a renegade too. They split soon after getting married. I think she was an 'honorary' Seed kid.

I always did like hanging around with the 'bad kids,' even if I wouldn't be one myself!

[NOT12NOW]

I am amazed that you figured out who the bad kids were.  Really, with the exception of the girl on my front row who ran away once she was back at school (and she ended up in the front row again--didn't want that.) I never saw many bad kids at least not ones that found ways to live around/above the rules.
I remember a graduate named Lori.  She  came in all the time but  almost never raised her hand.  She sat calmly, no manufactured enthusiasm and raised her hand once every couple days.  Sometimes she came into the rap for just like ten minutes and then quietly walked out. I remember wondering why her demeanor wasn?t indicative of druggy slack. Everyone talked about her being very wise and she did seem nice.
During my three nights she was made staff.  

I created the theory that once you graduated you were beyond question, but it was a theory I never tested on myself.  Once I graduated.   I went back to the Seed exactly once.  On my anniversary week, open meeting night.   I didn?t go in early and I cried the entire time I was supposed to speak.  That way I didn?t have to risk saying the wrong thing. Safely weeping and occasionally squeaking out,  ?I am just so thankful.?

[cleveland]

Funny, as soon as I read your description of Lori I remembered her. She was very pretty, with short dark hair and pale skin. She did have that air of someone wise beyond her age, and I do recall that she spoke very little. Maybe she lead raps? I don't recall. She was sort of the opposite of Diane M, another young staff member. Superfically, they resembled each other a bit, but I remember Diane as being frantic, and I thought she was kind of crazy. She was sort of 'gung ho' about it all.

Diane came down to Florida when Cleveland closed, I don't know what happened to Lori.

[NOT12NOW]

Lori yeah, brown hair brown eyes.  She had brothers in the program too.

That's too bad about Diane.  She went from three nights to staff when I was there.  She lived on the east side like me so I often rode with her or ran into her while taking the bus to the seed (on my three nights.) She went to a catholic girls school in Cleveland Heights.  Now doubt she had it bad, but I always experienced her as being relatively gentle-- Someone who would talk about herself instead of scrutinizing me.

I don't know if this was a chick thing, maybe guys didn't do it so much, but chicks turned each other in and when we didn't we would subtly threaten to do so.  Little comments like,? Are you wearing a bra today," or "don't you worry that those pants are almost like jeans," were generally ways we threatened each other.  The unstated message was, I am unhappy about something you did or said to me and I may find an infraction to turn you in for.  Sometimes it was just self-preservation.  One time I was planning an outing with two other girls. When one of them suggested we go to a particular park the other insisted it was a druggy park.  That began a panic,which ended in each of us calling the staff to report the others.  Crappy but that's war.

I never worried about that threat with Diane,
Even if she was seedling hook-n-line she seemed determined to lead by example.  She never said or did those sort of catty things the other girls I knew did.  I actually felt able to relax in her company; something I felt with only a couple people in the program.

Sorry to hear she turned rabid when she was staff.  She was only like seventeen when she made staff.

[cleveland]

I think Diane might have blasted me once in the group for something. I'm not sure. I think she was a sweet person but she was really hard core. Do you remember another jr. staff member named Alex? His family was Greek and owned restaurnats. They brought food to the Seed that was so much better than PB&Js.

Do you remember my brother, Evan? He would have been on the front row with you, I think. He ran away three times, once to go to a concert. Finally he caved in, and swallowed it hook, line and sinker. I came home from college and he talked me into coming in! He is a writer now; actually, he's had a pretty interesting history.

He was friends with Diane's brother, who I think was named Bob; Evan said he was the most psychopathic person he'd ever met. Other Seed kids he hung around with were Chris V., Rick something, and Waide. Waide was the only one who came to Florida.

I don't think guys turned each other in quite like the girls did. I think the guys tended to be really hard on their newcomers, but once you were in, they slacked off as much as they could get away with. Sort of. Keeping in mind that getting crazy for us meant skipping a rap or watching something X rated. Maybe guys and girls at that age have a different code.

My Cleveland Seed memories are so vague. I was only there for 3 months or so, so I was a sequestered newcomer. Most of the kids on the program were younger than I was, and the jr. staff too. I fit a little better into things once we moved to Ft. Lauderdale.

Do you remember Tom D---------r? He was a character. He was obsessed with Dodge Darts and Neil Diamond - bad Neil Diamond like 'September Morn' and 'Hot August Night' - not the good stuff! He moved from Cleveland down to Florida and then disappeared. I liked him; he was such an original guy. He was nerdy, smart and funny. I bet he was asked to leave for some reason.

[wtaylorg]

I remember visiting the Seed in Ft Lauderdale when I was in the 10th or 11th grade '80. My parents were vacationing in Pompano Beach and they dropped me off at the gate on SR84. Bob W, met me and ushered me in to the intake office near the gate, I was sequestered there for a 1/2 hr and Lybbi showed up and asked me if I have done drugs and if Bob or Evan had. I was literally shaking in my heels, cause I didn't know what was up.

She proceeded to tell me if I wanted to stay apart of the Seed, when I went back to Cleveland to have nothing to do with Evan or Bob. For a second my heart broke, as I loved those guys, and was confused about what if anything we had done

So, when I returned I did that and told Evan and Bob I had to end the friendship.
They called my parents and hung up on me for a few weeks and then it was over.

Typical Seed story.

[cleveland]

I remember Evan coming down for a visit in '79 or so. Everything seemed cool. Then I believe around the time you came down, or just before, I was told that some of the Cleveland kids had fucked up. And I didn't have any contact with my brother after that, although I did come home one
Christmas about '80 or '81 and I gave him a 22 rifle just to piss off my mom, so I must not have been told to have no contact. It's so hazy in my memory.

Who was the kid with the scratchy voice that I liked, was his name Rob? I vaguely remember that he liked to sail.

I remember a lot of Evan's Seed friends went thru my 'old druggie ties' - like my stereo equipment - and 'confiscated' it. Ha ha.

[NOT12NOW]

Yeah, pretty sure I went to school with him.
he went to Hawken right?  Didn't know him well, he came to the upper school when I was a sophmore, I think.  I am sorry to say my father may have had something to do with his ending up there.  He pushed for a lot of Hawken kids to go in.  Did you Know Bennet B? Jolly, curly haired guy.  I already asked you about Charlie G. who was graduated over the phone the night the seed left.
If your brother doesn't recall me he would probably remember one of my brothers.  My father worked at the school so my family was all over the place; the Brandt's Amy(me),Peter, Aaron.

[wtaylorg]

Yeah his name was Rob M. And he loved to sail. We used to sail out on Lake Erie with his Dad near Astabula. I think Evan went once or twice. He later moved to Fla, before me and got kicked out before I moved down in '82. A really good guy.
I remember breaking off with Evan as being a hard thing, We were very close and yeah we used your stereo and listened to Aerosmith,  Jimi Hendrix, etc.  Evan had a guitar and played a few lick as I recall.