Another note to John Underwood

[FueLaw]

Keep on posting. The more you post the more you expose yourself as a phoney and fraud. You are truely clueless.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-20 20:24:00, FueLaw wrote:

"Keep on posting. The more you post the more you expose yourself as a phoney and fraud. You are truely clueless. "

FueLaw - hee haw, hee haw  :lol:

[Anonymous]

FueLaw,
              Look in the mirror
 :wstupid:

[marcwordsmith]

What's up with all these anonymous posters making condescending and rude remarks? Is it just one or two anonymice amongst us? Is it that they are still being loyal to the Seed, "protecting their anonymity" per the rules? Or are they merely spinelessly mean-spirited? Gee, I don't know. What do you think, FueLaw?

You go, FueLaw. For the record, though I never witnessed or experienced a physical beating in the Seed, I totally believe your account about John Underwood beating you up together with someone else. It sounds perfectly in character to me. And yes, every time he posts, he reveals his own seething sense of inadequacy, and even after all these years, it's a pleasure, isn't it?

[FueLaw]

I think that "THE TRUTH" really really hurts. I dont care about their annonymity but they should just pick a name to make the conversation easier on the board.

The truth is the Seed was a cult which used experimental methods that eventually failed. It was based on a bunch of lies and fallacies and over time the lies and fallacies were revealed. The proof is evident in the manner in which the Seed existed over their last 20 or so years. Even Underwood himself acknowledges getting run off when his loyalty was questioned.

For purposes of discussion go back to your intake interview and think about what was said to your parents in order to get them to enroll you in the program. Keep in mind that I am talking about May , 1973 when all this drug stuff, and the rehabilitation business was relatively new. Our parents were told that we were on a "highway to hell" or "the road to ruin". That even if we barely used drugs, we had the "druggie attitude" which they could correct.

Our parents were scared of drugs, socitey was scared and Barker & Co. played on these fears to the absolute hilt. Never underestimate the way fear could make a parent act or react. Put in context staff was telling our parents if you dont leave your kids with us he will wind up in prison or dead on the streets. In this context many scared parents may just enroll their kids in the program.

Our parents were told that the Seed had a 90% success rate and they would straighten us out. Keep in mind the person doing the intake interview had no training or skill in evaluating any kind of problems a kid might have. Some of them may have just completed their 10-10 phase of the program several months before being made a staff member. They also may have been just as pathetic as junkies turned senior staffers like Underwood and Libby.  Were any parents ever told that the Seed had no professionals on staff and that the program had no long term or reliable data to support their claims of success?

Did Underwood or any staffers ever tell a parent that their kid wasn't that bad and really didn't need the program? Were any kids released from the program a week or so after admittance because the kid really wouldn't benefit from the program?

I would bet the success rate of the staffers doing the intake interviews was less than 50%. I was there over a year and staffers would disappear and never be heard from or spoken about again just the same as many of the kids.

The same analysis would be true of the people sent to the program by the court system. Frauds were prepetrated on the judges and other local public officials. Once these fruads came to light and someone flashed a spotlight on Barker/Underwood/Libby they ran like cowards. This is why the Dade, Pinellas and Cleveland facilities closed. Barker & company didnt want the lies and fraud exposed. A half a loaf is better than none at all.

Remember "Honesty was the first and most important rule" and it was violated as soon as you walked in the door. The lies and deceit continued up until the time you left the program.
(more on that later)

Any names or insults that these anon's hurl at me have no effect on me. It is less than 1/10th of 1% (one tenth of one percent) of the harm I suffered as a 14 year old. If we could survive the mental torture I'll last through a few name calling sessions.

Finally about the physical abuse. It took place. Not to the extent of 'Straight" and othe programs that followed but it did occur. The mental beatings were infinitely worse.

Underwood,please just stick around over the next few weeks, I along with others, will demonstrate by any reasonable standard that you were one of the most dispicable dishonest gutless human beings to ever trod the face of the earth. There is not doubt in my mind that you are evil to the core and fundamentally dishonest and I'll prove it.

[GregFL]

I remember several 9 year old kids in group in St Pete for Druggie attitudes. I have vivid memories of these little kids standing up and "relating" in group.

It was a pathetic abusive display, to have these little children locked up in a smoking swearing stinking warehouse. I don't ever remember anyone being turned away during my stay. But hey, it could of happened.

Instead, I think the truly devoted thought and still think the seed was a good dose of medicine for all.

[cleveland]

FueLaw, Marc...

You are speaking with some 'true believers' here, and no evidence or testimony will likely cause them to reconsider their position, because it is based on faith not reason...

You will only be seen as 'the enemy' and your own sanity and motives will be questioned.

I don't think that many of those who are 'true believers' are interested in a conversation, unless you agree with them. They will not take kindly to dissent.

And I do not believe their motivations are wholly wrong. After all, many people here can testify to their own success in beating drugs, and the failures of others. And many people were idealistic about the Seed and this clearly carries thru. However, if you question them it is evident that you will be put in the postion of being the enemy.

Don't let it happen. Speak your truth dispassionately. I urge John, Robin and others to do the same. Open you hearts and eyes and listen and learn, we all have a lot to contribute.

The Seed and it's variants come from a long history of revival groups in America that where lead or started by charismatic people, and were based on faith, and sought to convert others, and did not tolerate dissent...it goes back at least to the 1920s. Isn't that intersting to you? Dont; you think our experience with the Seed has positive things to say about faith and idealism, and equally negative things to say about comformity and fascism.

Keepin' it real,

Walter

[Anonymous]

right above your post fuelaw states:
"Underwood,please just stick around over the next few weeks, I along with others, will demonstrate by any reasonable standard that you were one of the most dispicable dishonest gutless human beings to ever trod the face of the earth. There is not doubt in my mind that you are evil to the core and fundamentally dishonest and I'll prove it."
again i must ask is this the adult mature dialogue that you refer to?

[FueLaw]

Taken in it's proper context the language and allegations are very mild. Torturing children is serious business. It is undisputed that John Underwood totured thousands of children. He is a disgrace to all decent people wherever they roam.

Like I said before he is a phoney and fraud, he has no balls all he could ever do was inject herion into his body and pick on little kids who could barely fight back.

[Anonymous]

fuelaw, again:
"It is undisputed that John Underwood totured thousands of children."
i don't know how to break this to you fue but it's disputed regularly right here but please do keep it up
comic relief helps all of us in troubled times

[FueLaw]

First, pick a name you gutless bastard. It makes it easier to address people on a board like this. Second, I am glad you are entertained because that makes it more likely you will come back to this website and get some information and education which you are clearly in need of. Thrid, define torture ? Fourth, define mental abuse?


Next, read GregFl's post under Underwood's most recent thread and tell me if you agree or not with the allegations and comments.

Does any dispute that these events or substaintially similar events ever took place?

[Gutless Bastard]

On 2005-09-21 21:14:00, FueLaw wrote:

"First, pick a name you gutless bastard. It makes it easier to address people on a board like this. Second, I am glad you are entertained because that makes it more likely you will come back to this website and get some information and education which you are clearly in need of. Thrid, define torture ? Fourth, define mental abuse?





Next, read GregFl's post under Underwood's most recent thread and tell me if you agree or not with the allegations and comments.



Does any dispute that these events or substaintially similar events ever took place? "

TORTURE
NOUN
Extreme mental distress

Unbearable physical pain

Intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain

The act of distorting something so it seems to mean something it was not intended to mean

The act of torturing someone

VERB
Torment emotionally or mentally

Subject to torture

MENTAL ABUSE
Cruel or inhumane treatment involving the mind or an intellectual process

be back later, off to do some reading.

[GregFL]

The gutless bastard, eh?

The name reminds me for some reason of "Fat bastard" from the spy who shagged me.

Thanks for registering, and for lightening up the conversation as well.



 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

[Gutless Bastard]

On 2005-09-21 22:57:00, GregFL wrote:

"The gutless bastard, eh?



The name reminds me for some reason of "Fat bastard" from the spy who shagged me.



Thanks for registering, and for lightening up the conversation as well.







 :grin:  :grin:  :grin: "

No problem. I guess i just didn't have the guts not to.   GB

[FueLaw]

Good one GB , at least you got a sense of humor. You also know how to use a dictionary. Your improving. Using your definitions would you say that mental abuse took place at the Seed ?


Note: post edited for content. Lets keep it civil please.

gregfl