Author Topic: Arizona Boys Ranch  (Read 25245 times)

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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2005, 08:27:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-09-21 22:00:00, DAUGHTER wrote:

"You need to realize, OverLordd that a crime is a crime. In God's eyes every crime is equal and in America, a crime is anything that brakes the law. Whether its shoplifting or murder, it all the same, criminal actions. "

And what happened to this young man was CRIMINAL.
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Offline OverLordd

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« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2005, 09:05:00 AM »
Quote
Actually, God allows every single thing to happen in this world according to His plan. Ya know its like the saying, He's got the whole world in His hands...and....Not one sparrow falls from the sky that God doesn't know about.

Of course he knew about it, God is onishient. But he give humanity free will, that inculdes free will to do evil things, and for the consiquences of those actions to play out. This child was murdered God did not alow it to happen, he played by his own rules. God had no hand in what happened to this child. Just because the child died does not mean that God looked down from heaven and said. "Die now."

Quote
You need to realize, OverLordd that a crime is a crime. In God's eyes every crime is equal and in America, a crime is anything that brakes the law. Whether its shoplifting or murder, it all the same, criminal actions.


And you need to see that you cannot be called a criminal unless you are convicted by a jury of your peers. How many of these kids had that? Guilty untill proven innocent remember daughter? I hope some one would show you how horrable it is for your rights to be ignored.

You seem to miss the point of this discussion daughter... stop calling people stupid and idiots, because there is always some one smarter than you are.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Jarhead6

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« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2005, 09:17:00 AM »
[ This Message was edited by: Jarhead6 on 2006-01-25 10:55 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline DAUGHTER

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« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2005, 02:13:00 PM »
I would like to know exactly what facts I do not know or have wrong in this case, Anonymous.....please, tell me!! I am very curious as to what you know that I don't--seeing as I grew up around that ranch and know how the teens were treated (contrary to your self-righteous, sympathetic, and pathetic beliefs that these children did no wrong) and have read the autoposy reports and police reports in this case. In the canal case, my own father was there and the police verified every word my father said to be true.

As far as OverLordd's belief that God doesn't allow bad things to happen....well, I guess we'll just have to agreee to disagree. That's fine if our personal, religious beliefs differ. No arguing is going to change either of our opinions. But I strongly believe that Satan has to approach God and ask Him permission before Satan does any wrong. (temptation) Its is then upto us as humans whether we give into Satan's temptation or not. And I also believe God ALLOWS bad things to happen (even to good people) for His greater good. He can use bad things to touch other people's lives and bring more lost souls to Him.

I honestly have no idea why I became so passionate about this topic. I was simply writting my profile online and was discussing various careers my parents had throughout my childhood. I just needed to know my father's job title while working at ABR and used a search engine to find it. Instead of finding ABR's official website, I discovered several biased, misinformed, anti-ABR websites. I spent eight or more hours that night reading- reading many posts online about the subject, reading many articles written that contained hundreds of exaggerations, lies and misconstrued facts, and reading the autoposy and police investigation reports. The more I read that night, the more I became furious with the fact that many people have no idea what they are writing about. (Now don't get me wrong, many of you out there are well-informed and educated about what you are talking about. Many of you have attended programs--all I can say to you is, the program you experienced was not ABR so don't compare the two because there are some bad programs out there, but there's also many good ones.   But there's also a lot of people who simply follow the crowd and agree with their opinions. I applaud OverLordd and other frequent posters who reply to me--you are educated and passionate, much like myself.) So I became filled with this urge that I needed to post my opinion out there and share with you my beliefs. Now that I have, I feel calm and peaceful know I have stood up for my beliefs and put my opinions out there for the world to see. I defended something that many people choose to bash because it's the popular and cool thing to do. I wish you all would realize that I do not justify either death at ABR-I simply don't believe ABR was at fault for them. It's a shame that these two young men had died, but I also believe ABR is not the one to blame or point the finger at here. It's also a shame ABR and its eight branches had to be closed considering the millions of young men that they had helped change their lives around. You all may not agree with the program, but the fact is, for many of those teens, the program worked-it was exactly want they needed. But to expect a 100% success rate in these programs isn't realistic.

Many of those boys did receive a trial jury, and ABR was what the judge had recommended. Others were just assigned there by the judge. Unfortunately, this country does not grant a trial by jury to everyone. While this may be the most fair approach, it also isn't realistic and practical. It is an expensive and tedious process. The jurors have to be notified, interviewed and choosen before the person may even appear in court. If the US granted a fair trial jury to every person tried with a crime (stealing a candy bar, murder, DUI, disturbing the peace,drug possession, rape, drunk and disorderly..), the accussed would have to wait months just awaiting trial because our system would be so incerdibly backed up. What do you suggest we should do with them while they are awaiting their trial?? Keep them locked up in jail? (But then you would have a cow about that because they could be potentially innocent and keeping them locked up isn't "fair".) So, we should allow them to be free until their trial, right? So the guilty people who did commit these crimes can roam our streets committing more heinous crimes and endangering us innocent people. Then they commit a crime and not have to serve any form of punishment for it until several years down the road. Logically think about what you are suggesting here.

Also, I would like to thank you, OverLordd. You have been a generous and respectful host. You gave me the benefit of a doubt (in the begging, while I was a new comer). I am glad to see other people are just as passionate about their beliefs as I am. Just because we have differing beliefs doesn't make either of us a bad human being. We need to respect the fact that we were probably raised differently, grew up in different households and environments..whatever, that has caused us to believe the way we do. I respect you that you take the time to discuss and at times, argue, with me about his topic. That shows true dedication and passion. I hope you realize that I also care about the troubled children and teens our nations has, but I just think a different approach is needed. (Now don't say I justify murder--that was one case out of the millions touched at ABR. I agree with the approach ABR had. It offered these teens a wonderful education, sports, trade experience, and yes, some respect for authority. Those kids learned in a self-contained environment free from all the crime and drugs our nations has to offer.) Thank you for your time and opinions, OverLordd, Three Springs, and the others that frequently replied to my posts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ring back good, successful programs, such as Arizona Boys Ranch!!
\"DAUGHTER\"

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2005, 02:45:00 PM »
Boys Ranch kids `lived in fear,' Calif. probe finds
Staffers at Arizona facility accused of falsifying reports
Thursday, 9 July 1998
NEWS      1A
By Enric Volante and Rhonda Bodfield
THE ARIZONA DAILY STAR

California officials are accusing Arizona of failing to protect children at Arizona Boys Ranch, where investigators found some delinquent youths had to ``live in fear'' of abuse.

A three-month California investigation found the atmosphere at Boys Ranch discouraged reporting abuse to authorities.

The California Social Services Department yesterday released a 400-page report, prompted by the March 2 death of 16-year-old Nicholaus Contreraz. The Sacramento youth died of an undetected lung infection at the Boys Ranch Oracle Camp.

Almost all of the 24 boys interviewed by the California team said they saw staff members hurt other residents, even though staff usually took boys out of sight to discipline them.

They reported incidents ranging from arm-twisting to hitting a boy in the stomach with a closed fist.


Didn't feel safe
Of the 24 boys, seven said they did not feel safe at Boys Ranch, seven others said they felt completely safe from the staff, and 10 others said they felt safe as long as they behaved.

The nine-member California panel recommended forwarding its findings to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona for a civil rights investigation, as well as to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Arizona Attorney General's Office.

Boys Ranch President Robert Thomas, who had not seen the report, yesterday called it superficial and biased. He said investigators relied on interviews with only a small pool of employees and residents.

California social services Director Eloise Anderson issued a summary of the report Tuesday, when she announced her state will stop paying to send youths to Boys Ranch because of concerns about physical and mental abuse, as well as medical neglect.

The report sharply criticized Arizona's Department of Economic Security for relicensing Boys Ranch over the years without forcing substantial reforms despite a series of reported physical abuses since the 1970s.


Dismissed criticism
Arizona officials yesterday dismissed the criticism of the state's oversight as shallow and hypocritical.

``It looks like a lot of finger-pointing and Johnny-come-lately kind of involvement'' by California, said DES spokeswoman Sally Hinderland.

``What's interesting is they are complaining about Arizona not requiring this and not being clear on that, and what they're talking about is an agency that would be completely illegal in California.

``But the bottom line is they've shipped a lot of kids out to our state.''

The report comes as California is enmeshed in a political debate over its policy of sending youths to treatment programs that would not be legal under California's stringent child-welfare laws.

The report gives more details of how the Boys Ranch culture clashed with California regulations.

The report states that the in-your-face, drill-sergeant approach used by Boys Ranch to change the behavior of young criminals violates the rights of juveniles under California law to be free of intimidation.

The staff should not have resorted to the ``violence, intimidation and other forms of coercion'' that many of the boys knew well from being in gangs, the report stated.


Boys provoked
Instead, they sometimes provoked boys or used physical restraints as punishment for misbehavior or ``because of a personal power struggle with staff.''

The report shows California's investigative team also concluded that:

*Physical abuse, psychological abuse and personal-rights violations ``were endemic'' at the Oracle camp, which oriented youths to the military-style boot camp. Most problems occurred in the orientation phase.

* Staff members at Oracle ``consistently employed violent and coercive methods in obtaining compliance with their requests.''

* Staff members were not adequately trained or supervised. The Oracle program director was unaware that as of July 1997 his child-care workers and supervisors were required to have certain training and experience.


Aggressiveness encouraged
* Employees were encouraged by peers and supervisors to be physically aggressive with residents. Some former employees and residents said physical controls were used for small infractions despite a written Boys Ranch policy to use controls only in instances of danger to self or others.

* Physical training was used as a disciplinary measure and water was often denied.

* Eight of 10 employees interviewed were unaware Arizona law required them to report suspected child abuse to police or Child Protective Services. Most said abuse was reported to Boys Ranch supervisors.

* Boys Ranch softened ``the tone'' of aggressive treatment when visitors were around.

Boys Ranch's Thomas yesterday acknowledged disciplinary violations occurred at the Oracle facility, but said he closed that camp in June to address those concerns.

``We have found some breaking of policies and found some staff down there totally disregarded policy, but on the other hand, it was an isolated case more in orientation - not in the entire program,'' Thomas said.


Problem corrected
``As far as Nicholaus Contreraz, we all know where the mistakes were made and I feel terrible about it and we've already corrected that problem,'' he said.

Thomas said that although California residents make up 220 of the 400 youths left from the nearly 600 residents before Contreraz's death, it is too early to sound Boys Ranch's death knell.

He said recruiting efforts can be stepped up in other states and some California agencies could challenge the legality of California's decision to pull funding.

California pays 40 percent of the $3,600 monthly cost of sending troubled youths to Boys Ranch. If California probation departments and juvenile courts decide to leave current residents there, they will have to pay the full cost after Aug. 1.

California has a ban on new placements to Boys Ranch.


Relatives interviewed
California investigators interviewed relatives of two current and two former Boys Ranch residents. Their views ranged from one mother who thought the program would help her son ``accomplish something with his life'' to another who called the program ``barbaric.''

All parents said boys could only phone them with staff members listening in on a speaker phone.

In one case, family members said when they saw their son in juvenile court in April, they noticed his face was swollen, according to the report.

In that case, a Boys Ranch doctor's medical report, dated April 20, noted that the boy's ``left hand was stepped on, left forehead was pushed into a pole (three times), hit on the right side of his nose, hit in cheeks with staff's elbow, and also behind the ears.'' The doctor recommended ``a review for possible excessive use of force.''

The California report does not give further findings on that case.

The report also summarized complaints about medical care from five boys.

One youth ``was suffering from colitis with symptoms of rectal bleeding and vomiting after being at the program for approximately two weeks,'' investigators wrote.


Accused of lying
``He stated that staff made fun of him, asked him if he was `gay' and accused him of lying about his illness. He did not receive medical attention for two months at which time he was hospitalized for one week.''

A boy said he received no treatment for a sore leg and blisters and received only Motrin, an over-the-counter pain reliever, for swollen tonsils, which did not help.

``She (the nurse) listened to staff; they always said I was manipulating,'' that boy told investigators.

Investigators also cited ``unreasonable'' restrictions on hygiene and bathroom use at Oracle.

Three staff members told investigators that boys in the orientation program at Oracle were allowed 35 seconds to shower, 20 seconds to use the toilet and 20 seconds to brush their teeth.


Toilet use ``timed''
They could use the toilet only first thing in the morning, directly after meals and right before bedtime ``and were timed,'' the report said. The main ranch had ``more reasonable'' time limits.

The toilet restrictions at the Oracle camp violated Arizona and California personal-rights regulations and Boys Ranch ended them in March, the report said.

----------------------

Daughter can take her toughlove, in-your-face- juvie-punk-ass" attitude and shove it. Any dipstick could and should have known Contreras was not faking.  His symptoms were real and the first warning that something was wrong. Shame on them all for not helping this kid and instead, neglecting him to the point where death was imminent.

 :smokin:

 :smokin:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2005, 03:01:00 PM »
Five Indicted In Death At Arizona Youth Ranch ('The Los Angeles Times'
Says An Arizona Grand Jury Thursday Indicted Five Former Employees
Of Arizona Boys Ranch For Manslaughter And Child Abuse, Charging
That The Four Camp Workers And A Staff Nurse Were Responsible
For The March 2 Death Of Nicholaus Contreraz, A 16-Year-Old Offender
From Sacramento, California, At The Paramilitary-Style Boot Camp)

Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:06:05 -0700
From: mapnews@mapinc.org
Subject: MN: US AZ: 5 Indicted In Death At Arizona Youth Ranch
Sender: owner-mapnews@mapinc.org
Organization: Media Awareness Project http://www.mapinc.org/lists/
Newshawk: Jim Rosenfield
Source: Los Angeles Times (CA)
Contact: http://www.latimes.com/
Pubdate: 2 October 1998
Author: JULIE CART, Times Staff Writer

5 INDICTED IN DEATH AT ARIZONA YOUTH RANCH

Courts: Former employees are accused of manslaughter and child
abuse in the case of a California offender whose complaints of illness
were reportedly dismissed.

An Arizona grand jury Thursday indicted five former employees of
Arizona Boys Ranch, charging that the four camp workers and a staff
nurse were responsible for the March 2 death of a Sacramento boy at
the paramilitary-style boot camp for juvenile offenders.

The indictments by the panel in Pinal County, southeast of Phoenix,
were the first criminal charges in the 7-month-old case, which has
brought about legislative changes, stricter licensing standards and
tougher oversight guidelines. The fallout from the death has also all
but closed the 50-year-old juvenile rehabilitation facility, which has
a national reputation.

The people charged were among those who worked most closely with
16-year-old Nicholaus Contreraz, who died while being physically
punished. The boy was cleared for rigorous exercise, despite repeated
complaints to the nurse that he was ill.

Indicted were camp nurse Linda Babb and four "work specialists" -
Geoffrey Sean Lewis, Montgomery Clayton Hoover, Michael
Martin Moreno and Troy Michael Jones. Four of the defendants live in
Tucson, and Hoover is from Sierra Vista, about 60 miles southeast of
that city. Each was charged with one count of child abuse and one
count of manslaughter, and faces a maximum penalty of 12 1/2 years in
prison for each count. Arraignment was scheduled for Oct. 23.

Officials at the program--based in Queen Creek, about 30 miles
southeast of Phoenix--had no comment Thursday.

In the past they have characterized Contreraz's death at their Oracle
facility, north of Tucson, as a tragedy and blamed it on the actions
of a few employees who were then suspended.

Children's rights advocates and others were outraged by the death--the
second at the ranch, which has had more than 100 child abuse
complaints lodged against it in the last five years. Thursday's
decision did not completely appease the Contreraz family, which has
sued the Arizona agency that licensed the ranch.

Contreraz's grandmother, Connie Woodward of Sacramento, told the
Associated Press that the administrators who tolerated abuse should
also be held accountable.

"It's a great feeling, but it's not enough yet," she said of the
indictments. "At least we know they're not gonna just slap their hands
and walk away." Cathy Sutton, whose daughter died while attending a
Utah wilderness camp and monitors such boot camp deaths nationwide,
echoed that sentiment.

"They fire the staff and think they've taken care of the problem," she
said. "But administrators never seem to be held accountable."

Contreraz had been sent to the camp after stealing a car and running
away while in custody. The slender teenager spent the last week of his
life complaining of chest pain and difficulty breathing, but had been
identified by the staff as a malingerer and punished more when he
complained, authorities said.

When the boy sought medical attention, the camp nurse repeatedly sent
him back out with approval to engage in the stringent exercise
required of troublesome juveniles, according to a sheriff's report.

His condition worsened and he began to defecate on himself and vomit
frequently, the report said.

Among the indicted staff were those who the report described as having
belittled the youth, made him sleep in soiled underwear, made him eat
dinner while sitting on a toilet and ordered him to carry a trash
basket filled with his soiled clothes and his own vomit.

Contreraz eventually collapsed and died. The medical examiner
pinpointed the cause of death as empyema, a buildup of fluid in the
lining between the lungs and chest cavity. Contreraz was also
suffering from strep and staph infections, pneumonia and chronic
bronchitis. The coroner noted 71 cuts and bruises on the boy's body.

Contreraz's gruesome punishment and death sparked a debate in both
Arizona and California.

California had a policy of sending juvenile offenders to out-of-state
facilities that did not meet its own state licensing requirements.
Lawmakers in Sacramento have since passed legislation discouraging
out-of-state placements and begun bringing home about 1,000 juveniles
from facilities around the country.

The loss of California youths was a severe blow to Boys Ranch, which
relied on the state for three-fourths of its enrollment.

Since Contreraz's death, the seven-campus ranch has closed five sites
and laid off dozens of employees.

The Arizona Department of Economic Security in August denied the ranch
an operating license, citing a "pattern of abuse" in the Contreraz
case and attacking the program's core philosophy of physical restraint
and hands-on confrontation. The state agency also announced that 17
former staff members were being placed on the Arizona Child Abuser
Directory based on their treatment of Contreraz and others.

The ranch has appealed the ruling and this month replaced Bob Thomas,
the program's longtime president.

The FBI is continuing its own investigation of the death.

Copyright 1998 Los Angeles Times.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nonconformistlaw

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« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2005, 03:27:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-22 11:13:00, DAUGHTER wrote:
"I am very curious as to what you know that I don't--seeing as I grew up around that ranch and know how the teens were treated (contrary to your self-righteous, sympathetic, and pathetic beliefs that these children did no wrong) and have read the autoposy reports and police reports in this case.
People who grew up or who were even right next door to the facility I was in had no clue what went on inside...programs usually go out of their way top hide everything that goes on on the inside. As for reading police reports...even those do not always paint an accurate picture...the fact you have read these reports DOES NOT MEAN you KNOW the truth. Case in point check this out...this is my experience where the truth is forever lost even with police reports.

Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =20#131534
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =10#123238

And as far as what kids "did wrong" to wind up in a treatment program or what a kid "did wrong" while in the program....that has absolutely nothing to do with the notorious program abuses that are inflicted upon children while in "treatment." No child deserves abuse no matter how egregious a child's conduct may or may not be.

Quote
"Instead of finding ABR's official website, I discovered several biased, misinformed, anti-ABR websites. I spent eight or more hours that night reading- reading many posts online about the subject, reading many articles written that contained hundreds of exaggerations, lies and misconstrued facts, and reading the autoposy and police investigation reports. The more I read that night, the more I became furious with the fact that many people have no idea what they are writing about. (Now don't get me wrong, many of you out there are well-informed and educated about what you are talking about. Many of you have attended programs--all I can say to you is, the program you experienced was not ABR so don't compare the two because there are some bad programs out there, but there's also many good ones."
 
For the record---any anti-porogram criticisms I have are based on MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE inside a treatment program...where outside eyes were strictly forbidden....I assure you, the things I witnessed were NOT exaggerations but are hard cold facts that people like you refuse to accept as reality. The truth about many treatment programs is VERY UGLY and widespread. A lot of posters here also speak from experience. Since you recognize this, why cant you recognize that you have NO experience? Your experience is second-hand information which we all know is told based on a person's biases and not necessarily reality.

Yes I did not attend the program you speak of, but that fact is irrelevant. Know why??? Because the program I was in was used as a model for future treatment programs...many operate today exactly or highly similar as Straight Inc. did. Do your homework...this can be confirmed with complete and unbiased research. Your beliefs about programs seems based on what is called hearsay, not hard cold facts.

Quote
"I defended something that many people choose to bash because it's the popular and cool thing to do. I wish you all would realize that I do not justify either death at ABR-I simply don't believe ABR was at fault for them. It's a shame that these two young men had died, but I also believe ABR is not the one to blame or point the finger at here. It's also a shame ABR and its eight branches had to be closed considering the millions of young men that they had helped change their lives around. You all may not agree with the program, but the fact is, for many of those teens, the program worked-it was exactly want they needed. But to expect a 100% success rate in these programs isn't realistic."

And by the way...Straight claimed to have a high success rate...which I can say that that claim was total bullshit and a mere salespitch...many kids were severely damaged by Straight's methods. Get over "success rates," that means absolutely nothing. And no I am not a bitter teen whose just pissed about going to a treatment program, if you read enough of my posts...that will be crystal clear. And what will also be clear is my anger and frustration with people who continue to blindly defend treatment programs while at the same time dismissing survivor stories as exaggerations/lies.

Please set aside your personal biases, open your eyes and see the ugly truth.

And one more thing....I personally would be extremely happy if I found out about a good program...but so far it hasn't happened yet. I would also hope the incident that started this debate was in fact an accident, but since I know first hand how staff routinely ignores medical complaints...the odds that this story was truly child abuse and neglect is very high. Admittedly i do not know the facts as I was not there to witness them...neither were you. But I do know how kids are commontly mistreated in programs generally. But I also will say that the facts you cited are highly suspect at best.  I find it difficult, based on my experience, to beleive this was an accident or as a result of the childs misconduct. If it was, someone is using higly dangerous disciplinary methods in the first place.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
quot;In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.\" George Orwell

Offline OverLordd

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« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2005, 04:05:00 PM »
Quote
As far as OverLordd's belief that God doesn't allow bad things to happen....well, I guess we'll just have to agreee to disagree. That's fine if our personal, religious beliefs differ. No arguing is going to change either of our opinions. But I strongly believe that Satan has to approach God and ask Him permission before Satan does any wrong. (temptation) Its is then upto us as humans whether we give into Satan's temptation or not. And I also believe God ALLOWS bad things to happen (even to good people) for His greater good. He can use bad things to touch other people's lives and bring more lost souls to Him.

Look, time for alittle theology debate here. Ok To start with. God is completely good. He is holy, he is perfect. That is important, it is a main idea in christianity. God cannot have a hand in anything evil, or he would no longer be holy and good. This of course includes having any hand in anything done wrong. If God were to give permission to do something wrong then he would lose his holyness and would no longer be perfect. If God gave permission he would be an accomplace to the crime. God has given the devil free will to do as he pleases. The only reason the devil talked to God about Job is because Job was under Gods protection as a holy person. It was a test for Job to see if he would still love God, this is not a evidence of bad things happen to good people, but a holy person staying holy even as he is tested.

Quote
Others were just assigned there by the judge. Unfortunately, this country does not grant a trial by jury to everyone. While this may be the most fair approach, it also isn't realistic and practical. It is an expensive and tedious process. The jurors have to be notified, interviewed and choosen before the person may even appear in court. If the US granted a fair trial jury to every person tried with a crime (stealing a candy bar, murder, DUI, disturbing the peace,drug possession, rape, drunk and disorderly..), the accussed would have to wait months just awaiting trial because our system would be so incerdibly backed up. What do you suggest we should do with them while they are awaiting their trial?? Keep them locked up in jail?

Once the justice system breaks down terrable things happen. I believe some of those terrable things are lynchings, specialiuty boarding schools, and people getting off on technicalities. You have got to hold to the justice sysstem and the law no matter what or we have break downs in socity. The consitution applys to every one unless it is taken away from them by ddue prossess. Due prossess is a trial by jury of your peers, not by a judge. Put the person out on bail, its done all the time. We have got to give people their rights, and we have got to follow the law or we are just as bad as those that break the law. So they wait for it, so what let them wait, let them worry, but give them their rights.

Quote
Also, I would like to thank you, OverLordd. You have been a generous and respectful host.


And your more well behaved then most people that agrue on this site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2005, 12:23:00 AM »
The California state officials quoted in the above article state that ABR wouldbe an illegal operation in California state. Then why did the state continue to send these troubled teens there. Even at the "ban" was implemented and even after Contreraz's death, California continued to assign boys to ABR and paid for their enrollment. So California tried to act like they solved their side of the issue and really all they did was point fingers and blame and then try to look like the good guys in the public eyes all the while continuing the very practices they criticized. As far as ABR "clashing" with California regulations, maybe that is because it is called ARIZONA Boys Ranch and not CALIFORNIA Boys Ranch. No where does it say that if you accept teens from one state that you have to abid by their regulations. No it says that any program needs to abide by the rules and regulations set by the state the program is occupying. So that statement is irregardless.

Please explain to me what the article meant by "physcological abuse". I guess if you all are going to accuse a program of just one thing then you must accuse it of all the possible abuses, huh?? So much for innocent until proven guilty. And if you had kept up with ANY of those staff members' cases, you would have seen that they were dismissed of all charges. But you are interested in that or pay attention to follow-up details. Their names have been cleared. And to say staff members were encouraged by peers and supervisors to be physically abusive is absurd. No supervisor or staff member would tolerate such advice.

And as to Nonconformistlaw, all I can say again is, you did not attend ABR so don't compare the two. I'm sorry you had such a tramatic experience at your previous facilities, but not all are like that. I hope one day you do find one that works for you--remember one facility that may not work for one person may work for someone else. And to say my opinions are based on heresay is ridiculous. If you were to read any previous posts, you would discover how much I have researched ABR. I have interviewed ex-ranchers, graduates of ABR, ex-staff (not my father-we have never discussed the topic), and spouses of ex-staff.I have read thousands of papers and reports about ABR-biased and factual. Not to mention I grew up there. But ya know, you're probably right. They were simply putting on this elaborate facade for the whole ten years I was there. Faking the entire time. I spent all day (during the summer) around those boys and know EXACTLY the way they were treated. I believe they are looking for attention they never received as children growing up, especially in the environment they grew up in. And they have found an opportunity to accuse a nationally acclaimed corporation and have decided to take it. These troubled kids have failed to realize the extent of their actions. Not only did they close the ranch, they cost honest men their jobs and their families struggle, they have also stolen the opportunity for other teens to have their second chance in life and fix their problems.

And as the ABR director said, California's probe was biased and misinformed. They took a small pool of ranchers and staff. How did they choose these canidates?? Did they only interview those that spoke against ABR or did they ask for volunteers?? How you approach your subjects is critical for obtaining an unbiased result. For example, if I wanted to prove that Democrats support liberally ideas and irrational methods. (Simply an example-can insert Republicans. No need for a politcal debate) I would need to poll an equal amount of both political parties. I couldn't just poll Republicans against Democrates and Democrates against Republicans.

The article also contained some pretty bold statements written as facts. Such as, " Employees were encouraged by peers and supervisors to be physically aggressive with residents. Some former employees and residents said physical controls were used for small infractions despite a written Boys Ranch policy to use controls only in instances of danger to self or others." and " Boys Ranch softened ``the tone'' of aggressive treatment when visitors were around". I would like to know how these "facts" were discovered. Where is their "factual" source. What are the names of the former staff members and former residents that said  this??

OverLordd, like I said, we will have to just agree to disagree about our religious beliefs. I totally-100% agree with you that God is perfect and holy and pure. But he is also all-knowing and omniscient. He knows what we will do when tempted before we even face the temptation. And He uses our sins for His plan and for His good. We may learn a certain lesson and not sin next time we are tempted, we may also touch others lives and hopefully, possibly have others come to Him. But I also believe God is in control of everything. He doesn't allow anything to hapen that isn't according to his plan. He gives us free will while He controls everything else.
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Offline DAUGHTER

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« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2005, 12:25:00 AM »
I wrote the ^^ above post, sorry, forgot to sign in!! Opps.
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« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2005, 04:58:00 AM »
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I'm sorry you had such a tramatic experience at your previous facilities, but not all are like that. I hope one day you do find one that works for you


 :rofl:

Daughter, why don't you find a program that works for you?  Perhaps, you should be sent to ABR.  I'm told it comes highly recommended.
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« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2005, 10:30:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-09-22 21:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The California state officials quoted in the above article state that ABR wouldbe an illegal operation in California state. Then why did the state continue to send these troubled teens there. Even at the "ban" was implemented and even after Contreraz's death, California continued to assign boys to ABR and paid for their enrollment. So California tried to act like they solved their side of the issue and really all they did was point fingers and blame and then try to look like the good guys in the public eyes all the while continuing the very practices they criticized. As far as ABR "clashing" with California regulations, maybe that is because it is called ARIZONA Boys Ranch and not CALIFORNIA Boys Ranch. No where does it say that if you accept teens from one state that you have to abid by their regulations. No it says that any program needs to abide by the rules and regulations set by the state the program is occupying. So that statement is irregardless.



Please explain to me what the article meant by "physcological abuse". I guess if you all are going to accuse a program of just one thing then you must accuse it of all the possible abuses, huh?? So much for innocent until proven guilty. And if you had kept up with ANY of those staff members' cases, you would have seen that they were dismissed of all charges. But you are interested in that or pay attention to follow-up details. Their names have been cleared. And to say staff members were encouraged by peers and supervisors to be physically abusive is absurd. No supervisor or staff member would tolerate such advice.



And as to Nonconformistlaw, all I can say again is, you did not attend ABR so don't compare the two. I'm sorry you had such a tramatic experience at your previous facilities, but not all are like that. I hope one day you do find one that works for you--remember one facility that may not work for one person may work for someone else. And to say my opinions are based on heresay is ridiculous. If you were to read any previous posts, you would discover how much I have researched ABR. I have interviewed ex-ranchers, graduates of ABR, ex-staff (not my father-we have never discussed the topic), and spouses of ex-staff.I have read thousands of papers and reports about ABR-biased and factual. Not to mention I grew up there. But ya know, you're probably right. They were simply putting on this elaborate facade for the whole ten years I was there. Faking the entire time. I spent all day (during the summer) around those boys and know EXACTLY the way they were treated. I believe they are looking for attention they never received as children growing up, especially in the environment they grew up in. And they have found an opportunity to accuse a nationally acclaimed corporation and have decided to take it. These troubled kids have failed to realize the extent of their actions. Not only did they close the ranch, they cost honest men their jobs and their families struggle, they have also stolen the opportunity for other teens to have their second chance in life and fix their problems.



And as the ABR director said, California's probe was biased and misinformed. They took a small pool of ranchers and staff. How did they choose these canidates?? Did they only interview those that spoke against ABR or did they ask for volunteers?? How you approach your subjects is critical for obtaining an unbiased result. For example, if I wanted to prove that Democrats support liberally ideas and irrational methods. (Simply an example-can insert Republicans. No need for a politcal debate) I would need to poll an equal amount of both political parties. I couldn't just poll Republicans against Democrates and Democrates against Republicans.



The article also contained some pretty bold statements written as facts. Such as, " Employees were encouraged by peers and supervisors to be physically aggressive with residents. Some former employees and residents said physical controls were used for small infractions despite a written Boys Ranch policy to use controls only in instances of danger to self or others." and " Boys Ranch softened ``the tone'' of aggressive treatment when visitors were around". I would like to know how these "facts" were discovered. Where is their "factual" source. What are the names of the former staff members and former residents that said  this??



OverLordd, like I said, we will have to just agree to disagree about our religious beliefs. I totally-100% agree with you that God is perfect and holy and pure. But he is also all-knowing and omniscient. He knows what we will do when tempted before we even face the temptation. And He uses our sins for His plan and for His good. We may learn a certain lesson and not sin next time we are tempted, we may also touch others lives and hopefully, possibly have others come to Him. But I also believe God is in control of everything. He doesn't allow anything to hapen that isn't according to his plan. He gives us free will while He controls everything else. "


Yeah, God is in control all right and is PISSED OFF at the way kids are being abused and even slaughtered by their so-called caregivers.

FORNITS is here for a purpose.  It is the voice of thousands of survivors of TEEN GULAGS trying to save their brothers and sisters from abuse, exploitation, and victimization.

Your voice daughter, is small, and means nothing, except to remind us that EVIL (the devil himself) is everywhere.

Go now, find another way to spread your message of hate.  We will pray for you.

 :wave:

Sorry, perhaps you should consider
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« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2005, 11:14:00 AM »
Of course they were cleared.  Did you honestly expect Arizona to admit they abused kids for profit?

Sheesh.  Daughter, either you are really naive or just plain desperate.

Chuck Long II was the first (hopefully not the last) person convicted for his role in the death of Tony Haynes.  And what did he get?  6 years.

Real tough, Arizona.  NOT!
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« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2005, 08:45:00 PM »
Tony Haynes was not a resident of Arizona Boys Ranch. That is the program I am concerned about. I have not researched other facilities and have no desire about what occurred there. So like I have said multiple times, don't bring up other programs because I will not discuss them since I have no concern for other programs, such as American Buffalo Solider Ranch where Tony Haynes attended.
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« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2005, 08:52:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-23 17:45:00, DAUGHTER wrote:

"Tony Haynes was not a resident of Arizona Boys Ranch. That is the program I am concerned about. I have not researched other facilities and have no desire about what occurred there. So like I have said multiple times, don't bring up other programs because I will not discuss them since I have no concern for other programs, such as American Buffalo Solider Ranch where Tony Haynes attended. "


Fine, keep your head in the sand.  Kids are abused and even killed in para-military style programs, like the one where Tony Haynes died.

That's a fact, whether you care to acknowedge it or not.

 :wave:
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