Author Topic: hurricane victims are victims of our uncaring government  (Read 15838 times)

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Offline Nonconformistlaw

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hurricane victims are victims of our uncaring government
« Reply #90 on: September 04, 2005, 06:24:00 PM »
Ginger said-----"I suppose I did get something valuable out of the program after all in that I can accept and even forgive horribly inhumane, insane behavior by people who are driven to it by horrific circumstance. I've seen so many normal, decent people behave like sadistic animals due to far less extreme circumstance than what those poor bastards have endured over the last week. Still can't exactly excuse it, but I can accept that that's the way it is."-------

Sorry, I misunderstood your comment before...I also agree with what you are saying here....and yeah, I think I learned the same exact thing in straight. Extreme circumstances drives people to do extreme things that are absolutely mind boggling. And I've seen that too, that normally decent people start to doing the most screwed up things if they are pushed to far. To illustrate what I mean...I once said in a college class (a criminal justice class focused on serial killers), that all human beings can become "criminal" (engage in violence) if they are pushed too far....and everyone has a different breaking point so to speak...therefore..in my mind anyway...whether a given person starts acting "horribly inhumane, and insane" depends not only on the extreme circumstances but also each individuals particular breaking point. Obviously there was plenty of violence in NO, but many were not violent.

Hope I am explaining my thinking clearly, but I agree with what you said...word for word, and I dont excuse it either...its just after seeing it happen in straight...you are absolutely right, it is very easy to see how the violence has happened in NO.
[ This Message was edited by: nonconformistlaw on 2005-09-04 15:27 ]
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quot;In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.\" George Orwell

Offline Anonymous

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hurricane victims are victims of our uncaring government
« Reply #91 on: September 05, 2005, 02:38:00 AM »
Quote
Yeah, I damm near could'na said that better mah niggerpoor, waterlogged self. Hey, you got any toothpix? I have a feelen' you gon be juicy and hard to get off mah teef like crispy. Is you good for tartar control?
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Offline Dr Fucktard

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hurricane victims are victims of our uncaring government
« Reply #92 on: September 05, 2005, 02:42:00 AM »
Quote
1. LACK OF EDUCATION amongst impoverished people - The information that was known about the potential for disaster in NO was widely known by EXPERTS and LOCAL, STATE, AND FED OFFICIALS. In addition, highly educated people are obviously very likely to fully grasp information shared from experts and officials and therefore be likely to run like hell when told to. That is NOT to say less or uneducated people are incapable of understanding?that is not what I mean at all. Those with past experience with hurricanes also are highly likely to ?get it? so to speak and take precautions, heed warnings, and evacuate. People with good common sense, regardless of their level of education, are probably also likely to heed warnings and get the hell out of dodge.

In comparison, imagine for a moment those in the most impoverished of circumstances. Most have very little education. Many tend to dismiss information from educated people, as they are suspicious of educated people to begin with. Ok this leaves good old fashion common sense? first, many of those people with the sense to realize what was coming couldn?t get out even if they wanted to for reasons I?ve already discusses in prior posts on this thread. Second, there are many degrees of intelligence?.and?lets face it?.some people were unfortunate in that they were born with low levels of intelligence. That?s not their fault. Combine lack of education, suspicion, rejection and resentment of ?educated? ideas, and lower levels of intelligence ? I see a very sad, stark reality, that impoverished uneducated people really may have dismissed the warnings?..and I cant bring myself to judge, criticize, or condemn their decision to stay?.I realize what I am saying may come across the wrong way, so let me stress that I personally don?t judge anyone based on their level of education? I detest those who do judge people who are ?uneducated.?

2. PAST EXPERIENCE. This came from the mouth of the Mississippi governor (see Russert transcript below)on why may of his residents did not leave and I think it applies to NO residents as well. Many times the residents boarded up, evacuated, and came back, only to find out they took precautions for nothing. Its then very easy for me to see, that people might therefore dismiss yet another warning and evacuation order. Incidentally, NO had to evacuate in 98 for hurricane George and only 50% actually left. So it really think its possible many thought evacuating would be pointless?based on past experience. If you boarded up, packed and evacuated numerous times without anything like Katrina happening?.ask yourself?is it reasonable that some people might get to the point where they no longer take the threat seriously?

3. MEDIA HYPE. The media, for all its good points, has a tendency to blow a simple storm out of proportion for the purpose of having something to report when nothing better is going on. Usually, as I have noticed, the impending doom of the ?storm? rarely materializes in the manner the media claims it will. So, sometimes the threat of a storm, by some people anyway, can be written off as yet more media hype, exaggerations, etc, and therefore, may not take a serious real threat seriously.

4. DENIAL. Human beings are well known to personally deny certain harsh realities of life?I guess I see it as a coping mechanism sometimes?after all, who wants to live in fear? For to admit the danger to oneself, for some people, means fear. I really believe some people because of this easily fall into ?Nothing bad will happen;? or ?I didn?t think it would be THIS bad.?

5. PARALYZED BY FEAR. There are some people, who fully realize the threat that is coming, may become paralyzed by fear?ever seen or heard of someone in a dangerous situation just stands there and does nothing? Combine this factor with a FEELING OF HELPLESS that a person w/o $ or transportation might experience. I think it is possible, some people who may have understood the threat, ended up just doing nothing due to a combination of both factors?..What would you do if you were scared to death and felt utterly powerless over a given situation, at the same time?

6. BAD DECISION MAKING IN A CRISIS ? and I don?t mean this in a critical sense because not all of us are good at making wise decisions under extreme stress. I think that is understandable.

7. TO HELP RELEIF EFFORTS ? many may have lingered to help relief efforts?.such as doctors, nurses, police, firefighters, and other emergency workers who felt an obligation to their community, to stay behind to do their jobs in a crisis situation?to save lives

8. OPPORTUNISTS ? yes I have to acknowledge that some people may have stayed simply to take advantage of the situation/looting. However I doubt many people fell in to this category?I think to be fair though, I had to acknowledge that a small fraction of the 20% probably was in this category----and I will NOT defend or support such people.

But you left out one thing here, NCL -- DRUG USE. :grin:
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Offline Antigen

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hurricane victims are victims of our uncaring government
« Reply #93 on: September 05, 2005, 12:34:00 PM »

From: "Mises Daily Article" Mises Economics  Blog.

Then Katrina Came

by Walter Block

[Posted on Monday, September 05,  2005]

       

Here I was, sitting in my office at Loyola University, New  Orleans, where I teach economics, very busy doing what I take to be the  Lord's work, and something unlikely as a wind on steroids rends asunder my work  and life. It presented denizens of New Orleans with a stark choice. Evacuate at  great inconvenience and run the risk that the oncoming bad weather will veer  elsewhere rendering such flight unnecessary, or stay put and brazen it out, and  have to deal with flooding, lack of electricity, no air conditioning in  90-degree-plus temperatures, to say nothing of actually loss of life and/or  limb, either due to the storm itself, or to the aftermath, including looting,  flooding, and loss of law and order.

My own modus operandi, finely honed after spending almost half a  decade in New Orleans, has been to wait until the very last minute, and then  bolt out of there, tail between my legs, and then sit in bumper-to-bumper  traffic. For Ivan, I crept to Baton Rouge, a trip of a little over an hour in  ordinary circumstances, in nine hours. For Katrina, I left home early Sunday  afternoon (8/28/05) inched up to Vicksburg in eight hours, which would usually  take a little over two hours. Then, I went on up to Little Rock, my previous  stamping ground (actually, it was Conway, a town of about 50,000, which lies  about 30 miles northwest of the capital of Arkansas), and from there to  Vancouver by plane.

I am now safely ensconced in western Canada, writing up the notes I took en  route. Happily, I escaped lightly, without too much inconvenience. But my heart  goes out to those who were very much less fortunate.

What has this to do with political economy, the usual subject of my writing  interest? A lot, that's what.

I. Private Enterprise

First of all, the levees that were breached by the hurricane were built,  owned and operated by government. Specifically, by the Army  Corps of Engineers. The levees could have been erected to a greater  height. They could have been stronger than they were. The drainage system could  have operated more effectively. Here, the New Orleans Sewerage and Water Board  was at fault. It consists of three main operating systems: sewerage, water,  and drainage. See here, here and bureau. I take no  position on whether levees are a good or bad thing; only that if they are to be  built, this should be done by an economic entity that can lose funding, and thus  put its very existence at risk, if it errs. This can only apply to the market,  never the state.

This is neither the time nor place to examine in detail the case for private  ownership of bodies of water such as the Mississippi River, Lake Pontchartrain,  and, indeed, all oceans, rivers, seas and lakes. But the same principles apply  here as they do to land. Suffice it to say that this is a question that should  be explored, for it is no accident that where there is private property there is  safety and responsibility, and where there is not there is not.

Secondly, numerous roads, highways and bridges were washed out, collapsed, or  were swept away. This makes it far more difficult for rescuers to get to the  beleaguered city, and for refugees to leave. You will never guess who built,  operated and maintained these facilities. Yes, it was government!

It of course cannot be denied that various oil drilling rigs also came  unglued, and that these were all private enterprises. One of them even collided  with a bridge, greatly damaging it. However, there is a significant difference  between the two types of events. The market test of profit and loss applies only  to the latter, not to the former. Those oil companies that built their platforms  more strongly will tend to grab market share from those that did not. No such  regimen operates in the governmental sector. Imagine if the oil drilling rigs  were all built by the state. They would have undoubtedly created far more  damage.

II. The Dead Hand of the Past

It is by no means clear that there should even be a city in the  territory now occupied by New Orleans.

Ideally, under a regime of economic freedom, what determines whether a  geographical area should be settled at all, and if so how intensively? It  depends upon whether or not, in the eyes of the human economic actors involved,  the subjective costs outweigh the benefits. The reason no one lives in the north  or south poles, and that population density in Siberia, Northern Canada and the  desert areas of Nevada is very low, is that the disadvantages are vastly greater  than the advantages in those places.

However, if government subsidizes building in areas people on their own would  not choose to locate, then the populace can no longer allocate itself  geographically in a rational manner. Similarly, the government declares  drought-stricken farmlands an emergency area, and heavily subsidizes agriculture  in such locales,  there is also misallocation of settlement in this regard.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) was created as part of the U.S.  Department of Homeland Security only on March 1, 2003, but the federal  government has been doling out gobs of money to inhabitants of areas struck by  tornados, storms, snow and other inclement weather for years. Such declarations  number in the dozens for 2005 alone. Southern  Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama have already been declared federal disaster  areas. Tons of money will pour into these political jurisdictions. Thus,  locational decisions are and will continue to be rendered less rational than  otherwise, if people had to pay the full costs of their geographical settlement  decisions.

It may well be that with the advantage of hindsight, the Big Easy is like  several of these other places: not too cold, or drought-stricken, but too low,  below sea level, and thus too much in danger of being flooded.

States Mises in this regard:

 

"Suppose that, making use of our entire store of technological skill and    our present-day knowledge of geography, we were to undertake to resettle the    earth's surface in such a way that we should afterwards be in a position to    take maximum advantage of the natural distribution of raw materials. And    suppose further that for this purpose the entire capital wealth of the present    were at our disposal in a form that would allow us to invest it in whatever    way was regarded as the most suitable for the end in view.

 

"In such a case the world would certainly take on an appearance that would    be very considerably different from the one it now presents. Many areas would    be less densely populated ... The great trade routes would follow other    courses."

At first glance, this does not support a New Orleans with anything like its  close-to-one-half-million population at its present location. Yes, this city is  situated at the mouth of a great river, and offers a world-class port to  international shipping. On the other hand as recent events have so tragically  demonstrated, these benefits may be more than offset by the fact that it lies  below sea level.

Does this mean that New Orleans would be doomed under a free enterprise  system? This is quite possibly the case, if we could do everything all over  again, and start off de novo, at the present time. But not necessarily,  given that vast investment has already been made in streets, buildings, pipes,  etc. Even though, perhaps, if we knew then what we know now, no city would have  been erected south of Lake Pontchartrain, it does not logically follow that it  should not be rebuilt at present, under realistic assumptions.

Given the New Orleans is now located where it is, it is entirely possible  that it is economical for there to remain a large human settlement in that area.  What cannot be denied is that when government enters the picture, economic  calculation of this sort becomes impossible.

Mises continues his analysis:

 

"With regard to choice of location ... new plants appear most efficient in    the light of the existing situation. But ... consideration for capital goods    produced in the past under certain circumstances makes the technologically    best ... (location) ... appear uneconomical. History and the past have their    say. An economic calculation that did not take them into account would be    deficient. We are not only of today; we are heirs of the past as well. Our    capital wealth is handed down from the past, and this fact has its    consequences ... (S)trict rationality ... induces the entrepreneur to continue    production in a disadvantageous location ... "

That is, New Orleans might well be a "disadvantageous location" based on the  assumption that we can with hindsight rearrange all previous locational  decisions. But, we can do no such thing. Rather, capital (buildings, roads,  pipelines, etc.) are bequeathed to us at a certain location. As it  happens, lots of valuable capital is located in New Orleans. This fact would  incline us to reinvest in that locale, storms be damned. But only private  enterprise can make such a decision on a rational basis. When government muddies  the waters, this cannot take place.

The best way then, to rationally determine whether or not the Big Easy should  be saved, is to leave this decision entirely to free enterprise ? to capitalist  entrepreneurs, who, alone, can rationally make such determinations. As the Austrian  side of the Socialist Calculation Debate has demonstrated, only with market  prices can this be done. Moreover, private owners make such decisions with their  own money, or funds entrusted to them; if they err, they alone suffer. They do  not bring the rest of us down along with them.

III. Weather Socialism

But there is a third element we cannot ignore: weather socialism.

According to an old adage, critics of government can properly blame this  institution for many things, but bad weather is not among them. Wrong, wrong. At  the risk of sounding out of step with the mainstream (a new experience for me)  the state is responsible not only for hurricanes, but for tornados, storms,  typhoon, tsunami, excessive heat, excessive cold, too much rain, too little  rain, floods, droughts, desertification, tempests, squalls, gales, rainstorms,  snowstorms, thunderstorms, blizzards, downpours, cyclones, whirlwinds, twisters,  monsoons, torrential rains, cloudbursts, showers, etc. You name any kind of bad  weather conditions, and the government is to blame.

Why, pray tell? Because the state at all levels grabs off almost 50% of the  GDP in taxes, and its regulations account for a significant additional amount of  wealth not created. If the voracious government left all or even most of the  property created by its rightful owners ? those who created it in the first  place with their own hands ? the weather problem could undoubtedly be better  addressed by private enterprise.

And for what wondrous tasks does the government waste trillions of our  earnings? Let me count some few of the ways. It subsidizes farmers who ought to  be allowed to go bankrupt when they cannot earn an honest profit in their  industry. As the number of farmers has declined over the years, the number of  bureaucrats in the Department of Agriculture has increased. Welfare for farmers  and agricultural mandarins.

Speaking of welfare, this is but the tip of the iceberg. Our masters in  Washington D.C. distribute our hard-earned money to people who bear children  they cannot afford to feed, and to corporate welfare bums. Then there is the  Department of Education (weren't the Republicans going to get rid of this sore  on the body politic?) that presides over a public school system that warehouses  and mis-educates our children.

And don't get me started on our system of medical socialism that wastes yet  other precious resources. We don't have HillaryCare yet but we are well on our  way. Then, too, we must count government throwing our money at the Post Office,  the Space program, ethanol, foreign "aid," unemployment insurance, the list goes  on and on.

The drug war incarcerates thousands of innocent people ? who could be out  there creating additional wealth ? at a cost exceeding tuition and room and  board at some of our most prestigious universities. Last but certainly not  least, speaking of war, the U.S. has been bullying its way around the world for  decades, creating untold havoc. Katrina can't hold a candle to our armed forces  in terms of killing innocent people. There are no truer words than that "War is the health of the  State."

Suppose that the "public sector" were not wasting untold riches. What has  this got to do with improving weather conditions? Well, a lot of the money  returned to the long-suffering taxpayers (and much of the additional wealth  created by the ending of economic regulations) would be allocated in the usual  directions: sailboats and pianos, and violin lessons and better food and more  entertainment, etc. But some of it would likely be invested in more research and  development as to the causes and cures of unwelcome weather conditions.

Is there any doubt that in 100, or 1,000, or 10,000 years ? assuming the  government does not blow us all up before then ? we will no longer be plagued by  uncooperative clouds? I don't say that if the state disappeared tomorrow the  next day we would have clear weather (and rain to order from 2am ? 4am), but  surely the ending of the former would bring about the latter that much more  quickly.

How would this work? Wouldn't the problem of "public goods" rend the market a  "failure," as our friends from the Chicago so-called "free enterprise" school of  economics would have it? Their argument is that if I come up with a way to stop  storms dead in their tracks, or better yet, orchestrate matters such that they  do not form in the first place, everyone else will "free ride" on my innovation.  The other beneficiaries will simply refuse to pay me for this boon I confer on  them, so I will not invest any money on this task in the first place. And  neither will you. So the private enterprise system cannot handle such  challenges.

Stuff and nonsense.

First of all, this task need not be accomplished on a for profit basis.  Non-profit organizations, too, are part of the private sector of the economy.  Just looking at the charitable outpourings to New Orleanians from all corners of  the country, we can see that there is no shortage of benevolence and good will  for the victims of Katrina. I should single out for special mention in this  regard that ?evil? profit maximizing large corporation that grinds down  suppliers, immiserates its own  workers due to its anti union policies, bankrupts small grocers, and  just all around exploits every else it touches: . This hated corporation  contributed $1 million to the Salvation Army for hurricane relief. More Recently,  Wal-Mart committed an additional $15 million for this purpose. As  part of this commitment,  Wal-Mart will ?establish mini-Wal-Mart stores in areas impacted by the  hurricane. Items such as clothing, diapers, baby wipes, food, formula,  toothbrushes, bedding and water will be given out free of charge to those with a  demonstrated need.?

In contrast, I do not recommend the American Red Cross, which is too tied to  the state. Unhappily, from my own point of view, Wal-Mart, sent another $1  million to the Red Cross. But my favorite charities, if you want to really help  the inhabitants of the Gulf Coast, are two. Both support free enterprise, the  last best hope for people there and everywhere. One is the Mises Institute; two, any of the State  Libertarian Parties of Mississippi, or Alabama. But not the national party,  until they deal with this issue.

The point is, if we the people had vastly more money at our disposal than we  do now, thanks to government profligacy with our funds, we would be able to  donate some of it to the not-for-profit sector to engage in research and  development for weather control.

Secondly, the market has a way of internalizing the so-called externalities  that supposedly prevent firms from providing storm-busting services. Within  limits, and depending upon technology, the purveyors of flood insurance would be able  to turn the rain and wind on and off like a spigot, depending upon the  locational densities of their clientele.

For example, if in area A 90% of the landowners are members of Hurricane  Busters, Inc., and in area B only 10% are, there is little doubt as to which  will be better served by this particular firm. Then, too, there will be not only  social pressure, but economic pressure, for large firms in any geographical area  to sign up for such services. Those that do not (particularly in states  stretching from Texas to Florida, and most certainly in New Orleans) will tend  to find their customer base disappearing.

As but one small instance of this phenomenon, companies with large parking  lots have recently instituted reserved spaces for pregnant women and new moms. No government agency forced  them to do any such thing. (Prediction: the state will soon do just that, so as  to garner credit for this very human and profitable policy). As this movement  catches on, few will be able to resist. A similar situation is likely to arise  with regard to protection from hurricanes. At the very least, if government  would but get out of the way, it would clear the path for private enterprise to  more quickly bring us the day when the Katrinas of the future will be  obviated.

To conclude, here is what I see as the libertarian position on the storm and  its aftermath. No national guard or other representatives of the state should be  brought in. They are in effect "murderers  and thieves." Instead, private police agencies, appointed by property  owners, should deal with the looters.

           
Block tells all: $13
Further, no tax  money should be poured into New Orleans. These are stolen funds, and should be  returned to their rightful owners, the taxpayers of the nation. Of course, this  applies, in spades, to those victimized by Katrina. But the refunds should be in  the form of money, not expenditures for rebuilding, which their proper owners  may or may not favor.  

Private enterprise alone should determine if the Big Easy is worth saving or  not. Problems of "transactions costs" will be far easier to overcome than  challenges presented by an inept and economically irrational government.  Possibly a Donald Trump type might try to buy up all the buildings at a fraction  of their previous value, and save his new investment by levee building and water  pumping. He wouldn't need to get 100% sales. A lesser amount, say, 90%, might  do, and he would only make his initial purchases subject to reaching this level.  That is, he might first purchase options to buy.

______________________________

Walter Block is Harold E.  Wirth Eminent Scholar, Endowed Chair of Economics Loyola University, and senior  fellow of the Mises Institute. A version of this piece ran on LRC. With his .edu account down, his  current email is: wblock70118@yahoo.com. Comments on this  article can Anonymity Anonymous

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Offline Anonymous

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hurricane victims are victims of our uncaring government
« Reply #94 on: September 05, 2005, 04:50:00 PM »
Got one question for all you saying this and that about how people should have been prepared, couldn't have been prepared, what have you, etc.

Are you, or are you not, prepared for the followings possible emergency/better-have-your-shit-together scenarios:

Fire: everyone got ladders from their upstairs windows? secondary means of egress? got all the alarms tested to be functional? mounted in the advised locations? fire extinguisher? run-downs with the kids on what to do? how to deal with pets?

BIG fires: are your parts in drought? are you prepared if fire breaks out?

Ice Storm: even those states not prone to much winter run the risk of an ice storm, and please don't think you don't unless you are WAY down south because there is a lot of fluctuation within a century on the weather and freak storms do happen. okay, so ice storm took down the power lines, and no one can get anywhere. got food? got water - think now, if you're on a pump system what happens when the power goes out? got back up cooking plans? got backup heat if your primary source requires electrity - to light the oil furnace even? got plenty of food incl. pet food?

Tornado: shelter? plans for kids and pets? plenty of food & water stored in case things really break down (good advice for many scenarios) ? heat and clothing needs stored?

Nuclear disaster: have you prepared that shelter yet? remember, mass is what you want in between you and the radiation, you want to be able to live in there for a goodly while if necessary, societal support WILL break down in this scenario, be prepared with PLENTY. don't forget can openers, don't forget to wrap a radio or two and batteries in something that will shield them from the radiation blast.

Evacuation: if for whatever reason you must evacuate, say the Antarctic ice shelf slides off and raises the sea level, or there is a hurricane headed your way, are you prepared to leave with necessities already organized and kids and pets safe?

Earthquake: what have you been putting off that you know you need to do to prepare for this? Earthquakes can cause all kinds of havoc with roads destroyed, fires, hazardous spills, broken glass and so on. are you ready?

Communities: who is going to need help evacuating, who are the senior citizens, how are you going to help people without cars in an evacuation?

I am not a church-going person, however, I can see the churches taking an interest in getting some of this solved for their community BEFORE the next disaster strikes.

Addendum: We pay godamn plenty in taxes. And yet the status quo remains that there are poor poor areas, the supposed benefit of taxes like education and transportation is NOT making into certain communities, keeping them poor. I wish we would depend less on government, that faceless bureaucracy, and more on communities working together to solve problems and plan for worst-case scenarios. Everyone in that city who hired someone to run the cash register, or vacuum the hotel rooms and paid them just enough to keep on living in the poor and neglected sections, they ought to feel responsible, at the very LEAST, for ensuring the safe departure of these underpaid and undervalued fellow persons.
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Offline Antigen

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hurricane victims are victims of our uncaring government
« Reply #95 on: September 05, 2005, 04:58:00 PM »
Shit, more immediate than that. I often read about how the "new" technology in communications, like the spectacularly redundant internet, are permanent features; how these technologies will preserve real knowledge and culture through the mellenia and permantently change the way humans interact.

But are all of you prepared for it to all go away? It's really quite frail. In order to have net access, we have to have phone lines and/or satelite connections, electricity, climate control, spare time and, most importantly, disposable income to support our own personall connections. When (not if) a significant number of us can no longer afford those frills, the little isp will fold, be bought out by the bigger, more concentrated, multinational corporations. Then it will be their game entirely.

I'll miss having regular contact w/ the whole motley mob of yenz. I'm savoring every month and year that's left. I hope ya'll focus on those segments of Cyberia that can best benefit yourselves and your loved ones and communities. I think it won't be long now before net access is a luxury few can afford. And at exactly that point, it'll lose it's intrinsic value and go the way of disco in the very early `80's.

That's just my prediction. I could be way off. But that's what I'm planning on (and, to a large degree, why I've never invested much long term faith in it.)

If you believe that people cannot be trusted to govern themselves,
then can they be trusted to govern others?
 
--Thomas Jefferson

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Offline Anonymous

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hurricane victims are victims of our uncaring government
« Reply #96 on: September 05, 2005, 06:35:00 PM »
Aiyiyi, Ginger! Why do you predict this?
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Offline Nonconformistlaw

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« Reply #97 on: September 05, 2005, 09:43:00 PM »
I actually am also convinced there will come a day when internet access will be limited....I think my concerns go along the lines of NWO control, therefore, limited access. I guess I think that because, to those who want to maintain power and control, the availability of the internet, in a very real way I think...might be percieved as a threat to those with power and control, because its a complete free-for-all of information exchange. After all, isn't lack of communication and lack of information one of the primary means to stay in control?
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« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2005, 12:09:00 PM »
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #99 on: September 06, 2005, 12:23:00 PM »
Quote
But then again you never know, Jesus could come and save us, at least us down here in the Bible Belt.


dangerous thinking... we got to take care of ourselves and stop thinking theres some dude in the sky watching out for us. once we realize we only get one shot at life, we'd probably stop killing ourselves and what not.
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Offline Nonconformistlaw

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« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2005, 12:44:00 PM »
I agree whith what dragonfly said to a large extent, and what ginger said about lack of electicity and/or money to stay "connected" to the internet.

I really think life will get very, very ugly before it ever gets better. And I think NWO is only part of what's in store.  :scared:

Let's just say, aside from the human tragedy, I take 911 and recently, the NO disaster as a very loud wake up call to prepare myself for darker times.
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« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2005, 12:51:00 PM »
And just when you think Katrina is bad, what will happen if the "American Hiroshima" plan is real. There are plenty of government and private sector people warning it's a When it happens not If it happens seceneio. I sure ass heck hope they are wrong but I'm just a simple citizen.

In the aftermath of Katrina it's common for people to have great difficuly getting there heads around the damage and quick desinigration of society. But could you imagine nuke devices going off in 10 different cities at the same time? I can't. The only plan I can come up with is to leave the country imediatly after an event like that if it were to happen.  The following is just one link. I know the world net daily is not liked by some. But search out the terms and people talking here and it will surprise you.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=46127
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2005, 02:13:00 PM »
Well, first I think that we here in America are quite fortunate. We have plenty of rich land and natural resources to support our population. On the other hand, we're several generations removed from those cultural habits and lifestyles needed to live relatively well as independent, agrarian communities. As for total devistation, that's entirely relative. If it all fell apart over, say, the next 10 years, the currently wealthy would likely see it as an apocolyps. But the very poor would actually land up better situated than they are today. How many of them would be able to adjust is another question and only time will answer it.

Look at the way the Amish live or even some of those hold out farm communities (not located in the dust bowl). One reason why I moved my family to the edge of Apalachia is because those living arts are still at least on life support here. I would guess that somewhere around 1% of 2nd and 3rd class city dwellers still keep yearly truck gardens sufficient for a good chunk of their own families' needs. And they save seed. Then there are the family farmers who make a living from farmers' markets, flea markets and a little bit of wholesaling to the grocery stores. So, given a couple of years to gear up and the will to do so, we could, in practical terms, lose our imported food supply lines and never really miss them. Everyone would be employed because there would just be more work to be done. And I just can't imagine any of the stupid petty shit continuing on, like requirements for Ag Dept licensing, quotas and other regulation. So, basically, anybody who wants to plow a spot or provide any other needed service could do so. There's also a reasonable amount of practical knowledge regarding folk medicine. I'm betting that the trade off between modern medical miracles and modern medical fuckups and side effects would be about a zero sum gambit. So no net loss there either.

Shit, if the Quakers can do it, so can the rest of us. It's just a matter of whether or not most people would waste a lot of years yearning for the good old days or whether they'd embrace the new old fashioned lifestyles.

Bottom line, as I see it, is that there hasn't been a single thing invented or built in the past 100 years that mankind can't do very well without. So what's the big deal, really, if we get set back 100 years technologically? I just don't see that as a major problem.


so long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #104 on: September 06, 2005, 02:34:00 PM »
While we're at it, let's consider the obvious benefits of a total breakdown of our current empire.

No more sulphur dioxide belching out of the coke and electrical plants throughout the country. Certainly, that alone would improve the overall health and life expectancy of many of the poor living close to these operations.

No more large mining operations pouring heavy metals into our rivers. I wonder how long it would take the Mon, Allagheny and the Ohio to heal once the supply of toxic waste were cut off?

Just imagine the dark and quiet..... ahhhhhh! I don't know about yenz, but I just LOVE me a good long power failure! Give me a couple of days a year w/ starlight instead of street lights, real conversation instead of TV, reading aloud by candle light. Something by Edgar A. Poe, perhaps, tossed into the mix just for kicks. No whining fans and air conditioners. Now, extend that to permanent status. The sound of a car or truck coming down the road could be heard for miles and would be a welcome diversion; harbinger of news from afar... completely different from the constant drone and cross moods we now associate w/ traffic and rush hour.

Not saying that I hope these things will happen. Any kind of shakeup on this order of magnitude will, certainly, cost lives and lifestyles and make many others just very uncomfortable. But, inasmuch as I believe it's practically inevitable, why not turn our minds and hands to enjoying it as much as possible?

As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

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