Author Topic: Now that a revered staff member has made an appearance  (Read 1174 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Now that a revered staff member has made an appearance
« on: August 14, 2005, 07:34:00 PM »
and posted what he thought about the program, his experience and his opinion of those who accepted the ideology and bulit a life bsed on it versus those who rejected it, where does that leave us?  

IT's obvious that many who were or are true seed belivers feel vindicated. Those who did not believe in what the seed taught might have felt insulted by the contents of JU's post. I can see that his explanations may have some value to some readers, but I guess I fall into the latter category, seeing Underwood's appearance as something less than positive.   Why?  

Because personally, I don't see much difference between the John Underwood of 30+ years ago and the guy who posted the comments.

Because living changes people but apparently here, if you change or question, you are labeled as angry, bitter, stuck in the past and told no uncertain terms to get over it.  

Because I have real reservations about how I was treated then , how I treated others as a result of the "teachings" I took with me, and now, how opinions similar to mine are, with very few exceptions, are deemed to emotionally-basedand therefore less valid  and stuck in a time warp.  

I note that the discussion of whether these programs should exist at all rarely receives the attention it is due.

We can't change the action of the past, what the court's did to us, what our parent's did to us or what we voulntarily signed up for.  Dun axed  the doctor and it can't be done!

But what we can do is try to get beyond our personal hurt feelings, or get beyond the feelings of righteousness and vidication and get to the meat this idea.


What about a  discussion of whether these things should exist at all - not based on our personal experiences?  Anybody up for that?

Should seed-type programs exist?  Should parent's be allowed to make a deposit and wash their hands of the "problem" child?  Should these programs be sanctioned by the government, supported by tax dollars and/or tax breaks?  Is there any value to the service they provide or would we be better off enlising our children in the armed services so they can atleast make a living while they are openly being taught "discipline" by the U.S. government.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

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Now that a revered staff member has made an appearance
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2005, 08:15:00 PM »
You know, from my perspective, I always thought when one of the insiders came along a lot of questions would be answered.

I never saw a ¨Come down on you¨ post coming and then a bunch of devisive emotional follow up posts on both sides of the issue.

to say I am a bit disapointed would be an understatement.

I guess the problem is I expected a result that didnt happen.

Oh well, life goes on.  As for me, life is good. I hope that is true for everyone reading.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Now that a revered staff member has made an appearance
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2005, 10:43:00 PM »
Okay.  So I wasn't out of my mind when I read that as a "come down on you".  I thought perhaps I was just being paranoid and my own insecruties were coloring the post.    

But what about it?  Since a staff member's input didn't change anything, and more likely than not, further divided the issue by coming down squarely on one side -  we still end up basically where we started:  are these kinds of programs, in the long run, really useful?  Do they really help or do they hurt more than they help ?

Is what we are doing here kind of like arguing non-stop whether one exit is better than another while the building burns down around us?  Maybe that's too dramatic or too simplistic - but either way, these places still exist. They still turn out basically the same two kinds of people, while we continue to argue the long-term effects on our lives.    

Perhaps it's time to recognize for the sake of today's children that  (1)not all choices we make must inevitably result in addiction,(2) not all behavior MUST be modified, and (3)if addiction is a legitimatly diagnosed illness, one cure does not fit all.

Sometimes people grow up and out of behavior and come to a much better understanding of themselves and the people around them when there is no life altering intervention and they are left to sort it out themselves. Nowadays, my mom would tell me it's a matter of maturity.  Then, way back then, my folks bought into the whole seed scene but I think they have lived to regret giving up children to the program.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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Now that a revered staff member has made an appearance
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2005, 09:03:00 AM »
Ya' know, occasionally, when I'm in an especially good state of mind, flush w/ success and easy living, I can be immune to this. But not just lately, for some reason. I fell for it. Got all indignant.

Look at how the conversation developed. John started out w/ the posthulate that the original Seed was all goodness and light, laied back and wholesome. It was those damned radical, out of control, parents. ODD is the contemporary term, I do believe.

Well, that's not how I remember it. And I was there, very much held captive from a very young age all the way till my 18th birthday. It has always been thus. Sure, we sang cooler songs, active Seedlings had slightly more freedom than active Straightlings. But the totalitarianism was there right from the beginning. So long as you agree verbally and maintain a blith, mindless expression of euphorea and never get busted growing up, all could seem like goodness and light. But if you dissent in any small way, and look the fuck out!

Shit, my constant anon troll, evidently at a loss for any compelling argument about the method (beginning w/ the enforced isolation) stooped to a plain out smear campaign. That, you see, is a taboo subject. Now, I admit, I made a stupid mistake in taking that bait. But do you think anyone would have made any kind of meaningful response if I had just ignored the attack?



It really puzzles me to see Marijuana connected with Narcotics - Dope and all that crap?it's a thousand times better than whiskey - it's an Assistant - a friend.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002ORZ/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Louis Armstrong

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline cleveland

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Now that a revered staff member has made an appearance
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2005, 09:53:00 AM »
I have to answer the broad question of whether these programs should exist at all. First, let's define 'the program' in very basic terms that both advocates and detractors can agree on:

1. The program exists to change your behaviour and your will, to alter your initial resistance so that you eventually will voluntarily comply with the group.

2. The technique employed is peer pressure, whether flooding you with love, or with sanctions and disapproval.

3. The group has a heirarchy, strict rules, and dissent of any kind is not tolerated.  

Advantages to 'the program':

Rapid, seemingly voluntary adherence to the rules; acceptance by the peer group causing an immediate rise in self esteem and group unity;  
individual can resist 'temptatitions' offered by the world 'outside' the group, and may end addictions, win a battle, loss weight, or save their soul, depending on the goals of 'the program.'

Disadvantages to 'the program':

The individual must sacrifice self-interest to the interests of the group; the individual must sacrifice full honesty and self-awareness to what is acceptable by the group; over time, the individual may experience stress and be unable to function outside of the group or within the group, and may ultimately reject 'the program.'

Objectively, 'the program' has short-term advantages. On the other hand, over time, a black and while view of the world may be inadequate, and the person will have to modify their views or perhaps reject 'the program' altogether.

Fiinally, 'the program' is inherently un-democratic, authoritarian, and inflexible. There may be abuses of power, manipulations within the group, and extremism.

Short-term gain, long-term pain.

'The Program' may have useful, short-term utility, but over time, is generally unstable, as the individual begins to need to assert themselves against the group, and flaws within the group begin to emerge, as people inevitably change.  

Perhaps I would want 'the program' to operate with my military, where group conformity and rapid response to orders is necessary. Would I want this with a teen? With my religion? With my government? Not me, though I understand that others do.

Walter (I have grown out of Wally Gator)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline Stripe

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Now that a revered staff member has made an appearance
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2005, 10:12:00 AM »
I fell for it too. I posted the questions above anonymously.  So with that admission, I hope not all sense of my question is lost to the identiy of the messenger.  

This board and all of its writers are a lesson learned for me. As much as I would like to think that I am beyond pushing my agenda, or being manipulated or reactive in a response, I am not.  I hope I don't always have these buttons deep inside. Objectivity - another character trait I would like to more fully develope while I am around this dimension.

Anyway, I'm gald I know where I stand in realtion to other people.  I would like to find common ground and deal with the real problem that is in the here and now, but I don't see that happening.  It seems to me that as long as I express and hold my opinions it is unlikely any useful content will be exchanged except with those who think like me.  I know what theseed principles are - I tried living by them for years and it did not work. What bothers me is that seedsupporters seem so hell-bent on refusing to see the other side of the issue. But then, it would be an awfully big ego in my head to think my job in this world is to sway any person from their beliefs.

By thinking of the issue beyond it's affect on my life I am labeled a traitor, viscious, venomous, hateful, etc. I've been called worse.  Hell, I've been spit on for doing my job defending accused murders, so I know something about the us/them mentality beyond this forum.

What I really want is the opportunity to put my time and energy into making a difference now, not just to argue about the value of past experience.  
 

Posting my opinions gives some frustration relief to me.  HOwever, I don't think it does much to protect my son or his friends from the dangers I see in the DARE program or the progeny programs of theseed and Striaght.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline GregFL

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Now that a revered staff member has made an appearance
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2005, 10:38:00 AM »
good posts all!

I see negative value in synanon style treatment, even with the acknowledgement that many people witness a turning point in their lives and stop destructive behavior during their time in one of these programs.

I think freedom is a valuable commodity and these programs leave their footprints all over the constitution and are generally oppressive and use dangerous techniques, especially when young children are involved.
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Offline Stripe

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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2005, 11:28:00 PM »
Yeah, I agree.  So where do we/I go now?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline GregFL

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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2005, 10:52:00 AM »
I think we all go on living happy productive lives. What else is there? What else makes any sense?

But also, what does that mean?

If fighting this  makes you happy, then pursue that avenue.  If not, let it go. If you pursue it, then try to do it in a way that doesn't involve your emotions in a negative fashion but instead lifts you up and makes you smile. This forum does that for me. I don't feel a need to go any further anymore in my "activism". I think that for me, this forum has turned a negative into a positive.

 that is my path to success..pursuing things that de-stress me and letting go of the things that tend to wind me up.

Now, that being said, I am no where close to totally successfull at this endeavor, but I work at it.  I think I understand the concept and I pursue it.

So where do you go from here? That is  your call my friend...
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2005, 12:12:00 PM »
Stripe by the look of things you could try Arabia, :grin:
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Offline Stripe

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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2005, 12:48:00 PM »
Yeah, but I'm a woman, so going to Arabia might be a step back in time and most probably would lead to my public execution.  [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-16 09:50 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline GregFL

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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2005, 01:05:00 PM »
Not with that mustache and head gear...you'll blend right in.

 :grin:
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2005, 01:07:00 PM »
that is a pic of frank Zappa...from Sheek yur booty, right?
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2005, 01:49:00 PM »
funny guy
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