Author Topic: Against My Better Judgement  (Read 20014 times)

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Offline JDUKE

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Against My Better Judgement
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2005, 12:33:00 PM »
Qute:   Ahem.

My wet dreams always involved WOMEN, there anon..and hot women to boot.

 

Havent had one in years. In fact...I think I miss em.

 

In all seriousness, I too want John to keep posting. He is entitled to say whatever he wants, and so is everyone else.

LOL :silly:

To be an atheist requires strength of mind and goodness of heart found in not one of a thousand.
--Samuel Taylor Coleridge, English poet, critic, journalist, philosopher

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g

Offline Stripe

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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2005, 10:21:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-12 11:03:00, Stripe wrote:

"Robin,
....

Your very first post directed to me (to Anaon w/law degree) requested that I provide specific examples of how the seed hurt me. I was really shocked by the force, if you will, of your inquiry - like how in the world could I have possibly been hurt by something that was good for you?  I dunno,  maybe its because I was not and am an addict and you were/are therefore, the seed mind set is a structure you need to have and one I cannot tolerate. We can agree to be different.  It's okay and I don't think it compromises your position or mine.



I bid you peace as well.    

 

Kevin Jean  aka Stripe "


Turns out, I was wrong, it wasn't Robin,  but an anon who wrote that to me. Thank you, Robin, for bringing it to my attention.  

[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-13 19:21 ]
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The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline marshall

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« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2005, 04:19:00 PM »
"Last year, a reporter from Canadian marijuana advocacy magazine Cannabis Culture asked Betty Sembler in person about the horror stories he?d read from Straight survivors. Sembler replied, ?They should get a life. I am proud of everything we have done. There's nothing to apologize for. The legalizers are the ones who should be apologizing.?
That?s the attitude of the drug war?s power duo. Shattered lives, suicides, forced abortions, fractured psyches ? all necessary casualties of the drug war, and nothing to apologize for."

Sound familiar? Same attitude. Get a life, get over it, grow up, etc. Expecting John to be critical of the Seed may be akin to expecting the pope to renounce catholicism. He was too much of an integral part of the whole program. Too much personally invested to take an objective look. I can imagine how I'd feel in his place reading this site. Any criticism of the program would feel like a personal attack. I agree with Ginger that it's very much like a religion. If you're a hindu and someone criticizes hinduism, you generally feel attacked along with the need to defend yourself and lash out.

On the Straight forum, I did find a post by a former senior staff member (marnie) apologizing for being a part of that program, pronouncing it a 'joke', etc.

Me, me, me. If you were sitting in the back during a rap all you'd hear would be me, me, me ad nauseum too. 'Before the seed 'I' was bad, now 'I' am trying to be good. I'm working on myself. Kicking myself in the ass everyday. Learning to love myself...blah blah.' Even if we posted that 'I remember helping someone or someone asked 'me' for help and I...' Isn't that also about me? At this site, Greg specifically asks us to relate 'personal' experiences' from the program. I don't have other's memories...their all mine.

Why so much negativity here? Think back to your days on the program. How many negative comments about the program or staff were you allowed to make? It was all 'accentuate the positive'...unless we were speaking about our horrible druggie past...in which case it was accentuate the negative. Only one side was allowed at the seed. Anything else was 'not important'. If you were on your program at the time & had asked staff why John left....do you suppose you would have been told anything resembling the truth? If the negative seems emphasized here, it's probably as a counterweight to the complete absence of any critical comments or thoughts being allowed back then. I've posted several times that there were positive things about the seed's ideas. I was able to keep and use what I thought useful and discard the rest. But this was explicitly forbidden by the program itself...no picking and choosing.

-------------------------------------------------

quote:
"Bitterness, resentment, anger, hostility, self-pity, et al are not independent entities that possess you. These are choices you make."
-------------------------------------------------
I agree 100%. About the only time that I even think of the Seed these days is when reading this forum. You shouldn't read the posts here and conclude that anyone sits around dwelling on this stuff. That's pure projection. Posting on this forum has several uses. By sharing (relating!) to others who have had similar expereinces, feelings and thoughts some of us have been able to heal the personality fragmentation and distortion resulting from the seed and help others to do the same. It isn't just  a matter of us poor seed kids wallowing in our own resentments, etc. then  The Seed is dead. Our captivity is over. Unfortunately, some version of Art's great dream lives on in countless other programs. It's important that we (who feel this way) make it plain that such programs cause more harm than good. Our witness and testimony here helps make that plain and hopefully some parent or govt. official may read here and have second thoughts about similar programs.

Expectations of perfection: I don't think I ever expected the seed to be perfect. But when someone claims to know your best interests more than you, your parents, therapists, this sets a very high standard. Peer-pressure techniques are value-free in themselves. You can mould a person's mind into any direction that you choose. That Art was so confident that he knew what was correct and true....so much that he was willing to use these powerful pursuasion techniques in order to bring kids' thinking into alignment with his own ideas...sets him (& his staff) up to a very high standard....almost beyond human. When did any rap leader confide; 'well, I'm not really sure about this...if any of you have any different ideas please feel free to correct me or bring them up.'? No. The concepts were presented as infallible, not to be questioned or examined. Any hint of critical thinking was met with the same sort of response that John has shown here. We were only supposed to take things so far...any further and it was 'analyzing, getting into your head, intellectual bullshit' and so on. Another thought-stopping techinique. It is the authoritarian nature of the seed that invites this focus upon the negative aspects. Rather than give any thoughtful answers or responses to the critiques of the seed posted here, John chose to answer by  labeling  ('bagging' everyone on the website...in seedspeak), calling people names and hurling insults. This approach is no doubt a product of the brotherly love, respect, empathy, compassion and great awareness that is the legacy of the seed.

For everyone that believes that the Seed was a good thing....I would urge you to visit the other forums on this site if you haven't already done so. Do you believe these other programs (such as Straight) were also good things? If not, why not exactly? What made the seed different? And which Seed are you defending? The early Seed...where most members were for legalizing marijuana according to a news clipping I read in staff's office?  The Seed (and it's siblings in miami, st. pete and cleveland) of John's era? Or the later Seed with it's emphasis on money, status, where you were always on your program and never expected to leave? If you're only critical of the later seed, how did such loving, aware beings become status-seeking control freaks?  Sorry so long. Much of the above is not directed specifically to John, just general thoughts from reading all the posts of late. I gotta run now...time for my afternoon mental masturbation. :lol:
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Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline JaLong

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« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2005, 09:11:00 PM »
John, I totally agree with you. If I didn't try to help someone everyday, even if it's just a smile, then what is my pupose in life?? I know God put me on this earth to love others as He loves me. I read so much negativity here, I wonder if some people are actually happy or even know who the are. I learned a lot from the Seed. Yet I also got pretty screwed up too. I went through AA, and that's where I really learned who I was.Even though I wasn't an alcholic and I learned to share my experince, strength, and hope with others.
Take care John.
Julie
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Offline Antigen

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Against My Better Judgement
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2005, 09:27:00 PM »
Thus spake Dr Linda Hazzard before "curing" herself of all Earthly troubles w/ her own patented starvation cure.

Since you [US "drug tsar" McCaffrey] control a federal budget that has just been increased from $17.8 billion last year to $19.2 billion this year, is asking people like you if we should continue with our nation's current drug policy like a person asking a barber if one needs a haircut? --
                                                              Orange Country, California
                                                                  Los Angeles Times
                                                                    29 March 2000
--Judge James P. Gray

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline marshall

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« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2005, 10:59:00 PM »
I found it ironic that a couple of posters showed their support for j.u. by exclaiming;
"You Rock!" & "You're a cool dude." If either of these phrases had been used at the Seed (at least while I was there) you would have been stood up and reprimanded for holding onto old druggie attitudes and slang. Cool was a definite no no. Folks in the popular culture were just beginnig to use 'dude' and this was also never to be used at the seed. I always thought dude seemed to go with chick...but apparently those in charge thought otherwise. Heck, you may as well have told a staff member they were really far-out. I can imagine the reaction back then.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline Stripe

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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2005, 12:32:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-08-15 18:11:00, JaLong wrote:

"John, I totally agree with you. If I didn't try to help someone everyday, even if it's just a smile, then what is my pupose in life?? I know God put me on this earth to love others as He loves me. I read so much negativity here, I wonder if some people are actually happy or even know who the are. I learned a lot from the Seed. Yet I also got pretty screwed up too. I went through AA, and that's where I really learned who I was.Even though I wasn't an alcholic and I learned to share my experince, strength, and hope with others.

Take care John.

Julie"


JaLong:

Surely you are not suggesting that seed rejecters need to step on over to AA to finish the job, are you ?  :wink:

The seed program was not, I repeat NOT, all sweetness and light. I got it, I lived it and I rejected it. Does that make me an unhappy person - as if happiness were the end goal and the highest point of spiritual development? I think not.  

In the end, I think what theseed did was create a whole class of emotional cripples, both supporters and rejecters.  Some of whom to cannot, to this day, live outside the confines of a "program" of sorts.  Those folks are the ones I feel sorry for because it just might be that there was NEVER any thing really broken about them in the first place. Ending up broken and unable to function in the real world, but totally at ease within the confines and protection of a program.  Now that would make me a very unhappy person. If that were the case, I'd lay money on it that I would be no closer to knowing myself now than I was to knowing myself then - way, way back a long long time ago.  

The person I thought I "knew" at 15 was the person they told me I was.  Pure and simple. In my head, (that terrible place you would never want be caught) I wondered if I was really as bad as they said I was.

If someone were to tell you day in and day out you are full of shit, worthless, dishonest and will end up dead, insane or in jail unless you submit your will to the greater good ...  Christ, it would take an emotional Hercules to maintain a power position in that battle and not believe it.  Unfortunately, there was no Hercules in my head and I lost that battle.

Look at any abused child, or man,  or woman, and you will see the very same results you have here.  And yes, it happens to men, too. Some will deny EMPHATICALLY that they were abused.  Some are ashamed, some are angry, and some just reach a point where they won't tolerate it any more, even a little tiny bit.  Hence the very negative responses you saw to JohnU's posts which you have attributed to unhappiness or lack on knowing oneself.  Personally, I think that's just a bit too shallow and a real easy way to ignore the content.  

After all these years, I realized they were wrong about me. Plain and simple, they were wrong about me and what they did to me was wrong. It was wrong, it was immoral and it was unethical.

Tell me, would you go to the Chevy dealer to get your Ferrari fixed? Probably not.  But folks still send their children to unqualified individuals in like-minded prgrams to "fix" the most priceless gift they could ever be given. What they get back is not the child they sent in.  Why, oh why, can't you see this? Help me understand you, please.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline GregFL

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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2005, 12:52:00 AM »
stripe..did you miss Julie posting this?

"I learned a lot from the Seed. Yet I also got pretty screwed up too."


I think she is pretty objective obout her experience.


This is an observation I would like to make:  What I took from the seed was overwhelmingly negative and caused me and my family much seperation and pain.

I saw other "kids" that seem to be able to just shrug it off, go on to smoke dope and drink and still say "the seed helped me...I needed something at the time". Their family units did not disenigrate around the issue, and their parents seemed to be able to put the whole program behind them.

As far as AA, I don't like it, never have never will. Still as we speak right now my best friend is going thru NA meetings to help him deal with his spouse's severe alcoholism. We talk about it all the time and it is helping him understand some things. He is also observing some negatives. The main point being, when XA is voluntary, and people are atending voluntarily and not under the coersion of the court system, It can be a beneficial thing. It can also become a compulsive replacement for the real world and cause people to believe they are "powerless" when in reality they possess the power, not some group of zealots...in other words....Shades of Gray and not all black and white. I have met many a AA person that was reasonable and others that were as cultish as any hari krisna shaking a tamboreen.

We all talk about how this forum has helped us, and I must say the biggest thing it has helped me with has been for me to be able to stop viewing my experience as the definition of what the seed was. It was many things to many people, and again the whole experience has many shades, depending on who is viewing it.

I will argue that the seed was a cult with anyone at any time and welcome the exchange, and I also believe firmly that the entire methodology does much more harm than good regardless of what particular group of world saving do gooders is leading the rap but no longer do I see it exclusively thru the eyes of a 14 year old boy.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2005, 06:42:00 AM »
I think in some cases NA can be good, in other cases it can be nothing more than a different sort of addiction for the person going through a withdrawal. I know a woman who has been going to NA meetings for over 15 years because she used to smoke pot occasionally. If that ain't mental I don't know what is. She somehow thinks she is too weak and can't say no on her own without going to these meetings every month. Is that the fault of the NA program? Or her own personality. I think maybe a little of both. Someone should tell her to get over it already and move on with her life.
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2005, 09:12:00 AM »
When I left the Seed I cast about for some kind of structure...stayed at home for a month until my mom, to celebrate new years, got drunk and told me, 'nice guys never win...and you're a nice guy' - among other unpleasantness, I left home again, although I did not sever ties with my family. I enrolled in college and met with the college shrink, who told me, month's later, 'you're a sensitive guy and you've been thru a lot.' Not much help there. I read books like 'The Drama of the Gifted Child' and anything by John Bradshaw about family systems and shame. Although I decided I was NOT an alcoholic and started to enjoy wine (but learned what was too much), and had even smoked a joint or two (and found I would not develop full blown paranioa, as I had pre-Seed), I went to AA meetings and Alanon and Adult Children of Alcoholics. I tried to imagine my inner child. I joined a 'family group' and tried to re-enact parts of my childhood (embarrasing). I joined a men's group. I tried going to church, decided I had problems with religious pronouncements. Suffering from anxiety and depression, I went to a doctor who prescribed a drug, that lifted all my anxiety, (yea!) removed my sex drive (oh oh), and finally led me to develop mania, which was fun but unsustainable (I kissed everyone, wept and laughed - but didn't sleep - wrote really bad - and really long - poems, and dressed in some kind of faux asian bohemian style; I almost lost my job!). I stopped the drug cold. I'm glad it's over, but I learned about parts of myself I didn't know still existed, like joy. Sometime later, I got married, and much later, divorced. Recently remarried (to a fantastic woman), and now I have a child, at age 46. My wife is jewish, I've been to temple (not bad - very spiritual and no banging on poor jesus christ all day long). I have wine with dinner, use no drugs except what's medically necessary, haven't gotten high in ages. If it weren't not for the fear that world is in terrible, terrible shape, I'd consider myself happy. And what did I take from all of this searching, flailing about for meaning?


We're all a bunch of fools and lost souls, and we should be kind to each other. Maybe there's a god, maybe not, but I am skeptical of anyone who claims to speak for him, her or it. Power corrupts everyone, and so does the lack of power. Buddhism is kind of cool, but can be boring. Sometimes it's nice to be with a group of people, sometimes you're better off alone, but both can make you crazy. Your family will drive you crazy, but that's where you came from. Hard work won't kill you, either will lazyness, just not too much of both. Sometimes problems do just go away by themselves. Doctors are people too. Goverment is corrupt. Beware of anyone who has an easy answer for you. Life is STILL like high school. There are always winners and losers, sometimes it doesn't matter.

There's my wisdom, such as it is. My Seed experience, both embracing it and rejecting it, was a part of that.

Sorry if this is self-endulgent, I just wanted to lay this out there. I suppose, in some way, this forum satisfies my need to 'rap.'Thank you!

Walter
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2005, 10:44:00 AM »
You left out the sunscreen...always apply a good suncreen.


http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~hgreenbe/sunscreen.html

 :grin:
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2005, 12:08:00 PM »
Walter, you rock dude.  

I really do like this guy.
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Offline marshall

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« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2005, 01:08:00 PM »
quote
-----------------------------
Walter, you rock dude
------------------------------
 :lol:  :lol:  :lol: Wow, Terrance...you must not be all that brainwashed afterall. Anyway, I agree. BTW, do you still play a lot of tennis these days?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline JaLong

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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2005, 01:20:00 PM »
Stripe,
You missed my whole point. I was very screwed up from the Seed, but I was stealing, dealing, robbing, beating up my mom, as my dad beat me, I was gang raped at 14, and I didn't know my butt from a hole in the ground, before or after the Seed. I will say, I was full of fear and anxiety, then started having panic attacks in there. I believe to this day that we were brainwashed. Knocked down to nothing, then everyone "built" up the same way. One thing was different for me. I was close to Susie Conners. My oldcomers had the female staff living with them at the time, so I had all night to talk to Susie. All the staff went through the program just like we all did, yet Susie treated me well, and taught me a lot. So there, I said it. No, I am most certainly not saying everyone needs to go to AA. I went with a boyfriend, and I saw things in some people that I wanted. So I started going. This was MY experience. I thought I could be open and honest here, but it doesn't seem that that is looked upon nicely. I am not looking at life through rose colored glasses. My life has been very hard. I have been disabled since 1991, have had a heart attack at 45, have raised 4 children by myself, I am in physical pain 24/7. I have Fibromyalgia, and Chronic Fatique syndrome, and 11 surgeries since 1991. But ya know what Sripe? Life does go on. I have found joy, happiness, and peace within myself. 19 of my old friends have died from suicide, murder, and overdoses. Some were in the Seed. So what Stripe? What? I am still here when I should have been dead from my heart attack. I am still here for a reason. I just let go and let God. Yes, for ME there is a very loving God, and He allows us to go through crap just so we learn and become stonger. I am just sharing my feelings. No comment is necessary please. So, take care Stripe.
Julie
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2005, 01:45:00 PM »
Marshall,
Not as much tennis as I would like...Do you remember that from Cranbrook days?
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