Carlbrook

[Anonymous]

My kid didn't choose it. He fought it kicking and screaming all the way.  He now agrees there was no other option.  He had already been kicked out of regular boarding school. It wasn't summer camp- there were lots of rules and restrictions.  That's the way things have to be at a place filled with kids who have defied authority to the point where they can no longer live in their homes or communities.  These kids lost the right to have internet access, cell phones, cars and girlfriends/boyfriends.  They had abused enough privileges that they landed in wilderness and then Carlbrook.  He's been out a couple of years now and moved on with his life. He still has many close friends from Carlbrook. Sorry-he doesn't hate us for sending him. He knows he got himself there and he earned his way out.

[TheWho]

On 2006-04-11 15:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Thanks, Who.  Parents and kids that have had success at Carlbrook are hearing about this site and hopefully all of us will keep posting our truth.



I'll be quite happy when Carlbrook has been around long enough for someone to put out a proper study to prove what we already know.



"

It helps when you have a third party, professionals, come in and do an assessment/study.  ASR was approached by a couple of people who wanted to study their therapeutic model and get a sense of how the kids did and what they had to go thru during their stay there.  Dave Marcus, who won a Pulitzer prize for writing, spent four years on this project and wrote a book on the lives of several kids that he followed thru the program.  V. Shapiro (Colgate University) also performed a study on the effectiveness of the ASR program and summarized her findings in a paper.

http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf

http://davemarcus.com/


When you get studies like this it transcends any petty arguments on what university a person gets their diploma from and whether they have a masters degree or a bachelors,  we all know it comes down to compassion and finding people who know how to help others and want to make a difference in a Childs life and the people who work at these places really care and want the best for the children.  

These people who come here and go line item by line item and try to discredit the schools employees because they didn?t attend Harvard or Yale and claim to be of the same profession are not fooling anyone.  If they were truly professional themselves they would contact them directly and ask them why they choose to work there, but instead they lack the professional courage and smear their names on the internet and discredit their hard work and jeopardize their career paths.

I understand a good debate, but will never understand why someone will undermine and cut the legs off someone of their own profession so publicly, in my opinion it is cowardly.

[Badpuppy]

First of all, he is credentialized, and did it professionally for many years. Second you are generalizing about the severity of behavior and whether apropriate measures were taken before incarceration. For example the kids who were in brat camp didn't seem to have any intervention before wildreness camp. Some of these kids are dumped because their parents want them out of the way. Other parents have a threshold of provocation Shirly Temple would cross. The limit of provocation often runs along cultural,religious, and geographical boundaries. Your assumption that before a teen enters residential treatment all other options have been exhausted is absolutely false. The marketing of these residential programs are dishonest, filled with bogus surveys, corrupt educational consultants, and sham research. But you did score one major "tour de force" And that is your extroadinarily compelling hypothosis that DJ has no expertise in family dynamics becuase he never had teenage children. I am writing to the American Medical Association to have all oncologists decertified unless they have had cancer. He or she used the same perspicacity to incarcerate their child.

[Badpuppy]

Unfortunantly the only objective assessment Shapiro uses indicates that her best possilble sample is clinically depressed, believes that they have no control over their lives, have horrendous relationships with parents, with scores that are clinically pathological as far as conduct. And 70% of those surveyed use drugs. That doesn't include the binge drinkers. I will concede to your side the huge ancedotale survey of four people David Marcus writes about. I want you to know I am a fair guy.
 I am glad your around. Makes the forum interesting.

[TheWho]

We can both point out specifics but V. Shapiros conclusion was:

V. Shapiros ?My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective. ?

Badpuppy, Many people on this forum believe there has never been a child ever who benefited from any program.  Like you said yourself in another post ?Whenever you have a 100% satisfaction rating you have to be deeply suspicious of the validity of the instrument. If Jesus Christ came down from heaven and healed the sick he wouldn't get a 100% rating.?

Kids are getting better and benefiting from these places, it cant be denied !!  Not 100% of them but many and it is amazing that there are people who see the evidence but prefer to attack the messenger instead.  Why is this?  Its not like there are many kids from ASR, Carlbrook etc who come here to say they are doing poorly.  Hell I can remember at least 10 kids who wanted to burn down my high school after graduation, not many jump for joy over their education during the teen years.

Why do people attack the credentials of the people working at these places?  Many colleges have on-line diploma programs (they never took a second to look before hurting someone),   who are we to judge which schools are better?  Why be unprofessional and a coward and smear some kids name who is trying to do some good for other kids and learn a profession?  I just don?t get it, there must be a hidden agenda to just hurt people this way publicly.  Why not contact them privately with their concerns?

[Anonymous]

Many people on this forum believe there has never been a child ever who benefited from any program.

Oh, what horrible close-minded people reside in this shithole known as fornits, thanks for that warning!

Kids are getting better and benefiting from these places, it cant be denied !!

That would be true if you had a 0.0000% success rating, very reassuring.
 :roll:

Not 100% of them but many

Well then, how many -- what percentage?

and it is amazing that there are people who see the evidence but prefer to attack the messenger instead. Why is this?

You are an asshole.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 900#187263

Good comment (the asshole one).
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 900#187264

I haven't seen any evidence of anything. I see the namecalling coming from the pro-Carlbrook side. Could this be Karen?

Its not like there are many kids from ASR, Carlbrook etc who come here to say they are doing poorly.

Haven't seen any stop by and say anything positive, either.

Hell I can remember at least 10 kids who wanted to burn down my high school after graduation, not many jump for joy over their education during the teen years.

So, you feel Carlbrook is a 'normal' high school environment? Was your high school similar in nature? Mine sure wasn't.

Why do people attack the credentials of the people working at these places?

Because they are entrusted with the safety of children and are unregulated. I haven't seen attacking, only inquiries. As a parent I'd think you'd understand this concept.

Many colleges have on-line diploma programs (they never took a second to look before hurting someone), who are we to judge which schools are better?

Concerned and cautious parents.

Why be unprofessional and a coward and smear some kids name who is trying to do some good for other kids and learn a profession?

Can you link me to the smearing, I must have missed that? How sympathetic a picture you paint, aparently Calrbrook employs 'kids' now?

I just don?t get it, there must be a hidden agenda to just hurt people this way publicly. Why not contact them privately with their concerns?

Yes, this forum is inhabitated by evil little devils who plot the demise of Carlbrook -- please. No, this is normal scrutiny which any parent should show when placing their child in anyone else's care.

[Nihilanthic]

On 2006-04-11 20:31:00, TheWho wrote:

"We can both point out specifics but V. Shapiros conclusion was:



V. Shapiros ?My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective. ?



Badpuppy, Many people on this forum believe there has never been a child ever who benefited from any program.  Like you said yourself in another post ?Whenever you have a 100% satisfaction rating you have to be deeply suspicious of the validity of the instrument. If Jesus Christ came down from heaven and healed the sick he wouldn't get a 100% rating.?



Kids are getting better and benefiting from these places, it cant be denied !!  Not 100% of them but many and it is amazing that there are people who see the evidence but prefer to attack the messenger instead.  Why is this?  Its not like there are many kids from ASR, Carlbrook etc who come here to say they are doing poorly.  Hell I can remember at least 10 kids who wanted to burn down my high school after graduation, not many jump for joy over their education during the teen years.



Why do people attack the credentials of the people working at these places?  Many colleges have on-line diploma programs (they never took a second to look before hurting someone),   who are we to judge which schools are better?  Why be unprofessional and a coward and smear some kids name who is trying to do some good for other kids and learn a profession?  I just don?t get it, there must be a hidden agenda to just hurt people this way publicly.  Why not contact them privately with their concerns?







"

Ok, SHE (and is she an authority?) says it could be effective. Zippadedoda.

She says changes can be made - nobody contested that! We contested that it wont LAST, and not without long term issues from the methods they use to create the changes. Also, NONE of her data has anything to do with how they are 3-5 years after the program... whats your point?

She did not, however, prove that its not detremental to development. What she concludes is hardly empirical. She doesnt have enough data to say much of anything per her own admission, and her data consists of what parents and students told her.

Theres no control group, there is no real data sample here, just potentially (and most likely) very biased surveys and such given to kids in and after the program and to the parents. Now, how would you remove the possible influence that might happen considering if you say anything but what the parents/program want to hear you might get sent back?

Regardless, what she said ASR uses is, infact, abusive! What is your answer to that?

Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 620#175625 <-  :wave: for those who missed what I said like two months ago  :roll:

[Antigen]

On 2006-04-11 20:31:00, TheWho wrote:

Kids are getting better and benefiting from these places, it cant be denied !! Not 100% of them but many and it is amazing that there are people who see the evidence but prefer to attack the messenger instead. Why is this?

Because so many of us had to choose between being excluded from our families or humoring their parent's fondly held beliefs attributing our successes to those programs.

Why are you so bent on slaying the messenger?

To regard Christ as God, and to pray to him, are to my mind the greatest possible sacrilege.
--Leo Tolstoy, Russian revolutionary

[Anonymous]

On 2006-04-11 18:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"One last thing...HE CHOSE CARLBROOK.  I wanted him to go to traditional boarding school.  Please quit making assumptions.  You don't know us."

Oh, we know you perfectly well Karen.  :wink:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-14 09:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Dysfunction Junction & Antigen,



Thank you for the info. It will help with my research for the letter of complaint. I am appalled that the NASW would advertise a job opening for this type of program. It demonstrates that a large portion of American society is clueless about these teen programs. I plan on cancelling my NASW membership, if the Carlbrook job advertisement is not removed from their website.



I have strong feelings about these teen programs, and have familiarity with Synanon based crap. I worked (pre-grad school) for an atrotious TC in upstate NY. It was an eye opener. I made several CPS reports, due to witnessing some abusive stuff. But this did nothing to shake the system. It seems that many of these programs remain in existence due to tight political connections, good lawyers, and lots of coin. It makes me sick.



LMSW Woman

(Who keeps ranting about credentials of clinicians)







"

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-14 08:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-09-13 16:55:00, Anonymous wrote:


" I see degrees from major universities such as U of Maine, Furman, U of Kentucky and Wash U.  This appears to be a faculty with pretty impressive credentials, which doesn't say anything about the BM program or how the staff interacts with the kids."

I am a licensed clinical practitioner with over 10 years experience in the mental health field. Sorry, I disagree. These schools do not have impressive clinical programs. They rank at the bottom. A program that charges around $5000 per month per student could afford to hire seasoned clinicians who have graduated from top clinical programs (ie: Columbia University, Smith College, Stamford, UCLA, University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, Boston College, Fordham University, NYU, etc.). Carlbrook is not a prisoner of low pay Medicaid reimbursement, like most programs. Yet, for some reason, this program hires the bottom of the barrel. Perhaps their budget favors the "Board of Regents" staff over the clinical staff? This would explain the unimpressive clinical credentials."

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-14 15:04:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-09-14 11:31:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Carlbrook is an excellent program with a reputable therapeutic staff.  Any parents who are researching this school should go to http://www.strugglingteens.com and post in the program section and ask for information.  The information on this site is way off base and posted by disgruntled kids and adults who have no idea what they are talking about.


As you can see from other posts in this forum, these are a bunch of crazies who think all emotional growth programs are abusive.  


Do not base any decisions on the crap posted on this site.  Visit the school, meet the staff and make an informed decision."

Carlbrook has no business advertising itself as a therapeutic place for kids with emotional and substance abuse issues. For example, they are not licensed by the Virginia Office of Mental Health and Substance Abuse. You can look up licensed mental health and substance abuse programs here: http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp



Who is crazy? The critics? Not based upon my research! Parents who send kids here do so at their own risk. There is minimal outside oversight at this facility. This program (because it is for-profit and nonreliant upon taxpayer funding, Medicaid, and private insurance) has a lot of freedom to "therapize" kids as they see fit. Carlbrook and its practitioners are not beholden to the same regulations as licensed providers.



They claim to treat kids with emotional problems. Why is there no psychiatrist (MD) on staff? Why is there only 1 licensed clinician in a long list of clinicians ("advisors")?



For $5700+ per month, I could think of research proven effective, safe, and less restrictive ways to treat kids with problems. And the parents would have more money in their pockets.



Emotional growth programs? Wilderness Therapy?They don't teach that garbage in any reputable, ethical, clinical graduate program. Why? Because it is NOT research proven effective.



LMSW Woman

"

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-16 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

"How sad that all these type A Parents have kids growing up in a "therapeutic" community.



Look in the mirror, parents.



YOU, not your child, are a failure.  You are hyper-over-controlling losers.



Can you imagine what it feels like to be YOUR kid?  Stuck in a high-priced institutionalized boarding school so your parents don't have to see or hear you?



What a sick, twisted way to raise children.  



How proud you all must be.



 :smokin:



"

[Troll Control]

Hopefully we'll save a few kids from going to abusive programs.

Well, this we can surely agree upon.  I genuinely hope that this is the case.

I see The Who (who supports programs that kill children - read his posts) is still clinging to the "Shapiro life raft."  What a joke.  

Who, it's like you have tourette's syndrome and all you can say is "V. Shapiro of Colgate University," as if she were faculty or some authority.  Who, the more you post, the more you vicariously smear those on your side.  You are a terrible representative and an even worse debator.  At least some of the other posters here have some sense.

[Anonymis]

On 2006-04-11 18:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

"My kid didn't choose it. He fought it kicking and screaming all the way.  He now agrees there was no other option.  He had already been kicked out of regular boarding school. It wasn't summer camp- there were lots of rules and restrictions.  That's the way things have to be at a place filled with kids who have defied authority to the point where they can no longer live in their homes or communities.  These kids lost the right to have internet access, cell phones, cars and girlfriends/boyfriends.  They had abused enough privileges that they landed in wilderness and then Carlbrook.  He's been out a couple of years now and moved on with his life. He still has many close friends from Carlbrook. Sorry-he doesn't hate us for sending him. He knows he got himself there and he earned his way out. "

I am guessing you probably had all your kids in boarding school... am I wrong? You are the ultimate control freak parent, sucks for your kids. I'm sure they look great on paper though.