Author Topic: The Great Mystery of the Final Days  (Read 10125 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2005, 02:29:00 PM »
but still, someone should step up and tell the story...just to even the score for those that stuck around so many years just to have the rug pulled out from under them.

Someone please do the right thing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2005, 02:45:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-06-22 09:56:00, Stripe wrote:

"Cleveland,



Ok, I'll use that term sparingly.



When I do use that term,  I am referring  strictly to the top creators and supporting staff members, not the rank and file. Generally, a programmer knows exactly what he or she is doing and intends the result - a controlled rank and file.  



My observation that part of the result of programming was our own unknowing use of programming techniques on ourselves and each other is not meant to be critical or make any person feel bad about doing what we thought was the right thing. It just is what it is.



I see it more as clear evidence of the power that was weilded over us with abosolutely no regard for or understanding of the consequences.  I have spent years feeling awfully guilty and remorseful about things I said and did back then.



Please accept my apologies if I offened you,  or any other rank and file as it was not my intention to do that.   [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-22 10:14 ]"


Stripe, I think you miss one point here.  Even the very top people...Libby..Suzie..these people were just kids themselves and duped into the scheme. They, at least early on, weren't sophisticated enough, smart enough, or even educated enough to understand the techniques they were using..they were only on the program themselves and then elevated to hero status by  the group and by Art.

We were all victims...yes even Art himself...he was a victim of AA dogma and an ego that overshadowed reality and self perpeuated into god/hero worship. I believe he  really thought that the "drugs" and druggie culture were going to destroy american society and he was waging a one man war against it, a war that spoke loudly to the fears of our parents.  This mindset was shared by my father and we were basically casualties of this war, our youthfull innocence expendable in the greater more important drug war and "counter culture" issues of the day.

I am not excusing Art only trying to understand how we ALL approach this topic.

You and I for instance will come to different conclusions than someone who spent 20 years there, believing the seed was their actual family, only to be left alone by this family without explanation when the shit hit the fan.

Still others (Robin?) will think differently than us because she apparently didn't experience much trauma at the seed and spent the last 30 years believing it saved her life.

We all need to try to understand why the other guy has a certain mindset when we broach a topic in this forum. It is hard to do granted, but it imrpoves the dialogue tremendously.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline marshall

  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2005, 10:39:00 PM »
"We were all victims...yes even Art himself...he was a victim of AA dogma and an ego that overshadowed reality and self perpeuated into god/hero worship. I believe he really thought that the "drugs" and druggie culture were going to destroy american society and he was waging a one man war against it, a war that spoke loudly to the fears of our parents. This mindset was shared by my father and we were basically casualties of this war, our youthfull innocence expendable in the greater more important drug war and "counter culture" issues of the day."

You hit the nail right on the head here, Greg. I agree 100%. :nworthy:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline cleveland

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 410
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2005, 09:38:00 AM »
I would argue that this war is still on...

Those who believe that people are naturally bad and need to be controlled, that the world is made up of right vs. wrong, good vs. evil, and that sacrificing a few rights or people's feelings in order to 'fight' the bad guys or control the 'evil' in yourself is OK.

On the other hand are those who believe that people want to be good, that empathy and compassion, responsibility and honesty are more important than power and control. Today, the 'conserviative backlash' against 'us druggies' is in full swing, and it's considered unAmerican to question the 'powers that be,' that the poor are there because they are 'weak,' and that the state owes anything to the public.

Even in myself I struggle with these two competing versions of the world, and now, thanks to the hysterical right wing that seems to control everything while protesting it doesn't, it is even more clear to me how much my heart is in the right place.

Controlling people 'for their own good' never works out...helping myself and then others to  find their own power and compassion is the way to go...

I think we Seedlings understand this mor than many people do.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2005, 09:49:00 AM »
Rest assured that Anon & 80's guy are very familiar with the events of the final days. They do not need someone to tell them what happened they lived it.

  What is at issue here were the actions taking by a few with no regards toward the consequences of their actions, actions that very much affected the lives of 80?s guy, anon and so many others in so many different areas.  People that based their whole life on what the Seed had preached and supposedly lived.

 I can only imagine how betrayed and confused so many must have felt who had based their lives around the Seed only to find their lives shattered by the action of a few who never even bothered to inform or get the opinion of all of the people who ultimately would be affected.

 What Gaul for those involved to take such action without consulting the others involved,  hiding behind the mask of ? Doing the right thing? When all that they really wanted to do is to gain their independence from the influence of Art Barker with no regards to all those involved. The only thing that mattered to them was their selfish motives with no regards to what their actions would bring to so many.

 Most were caught between two warring factions with their lives and many of their relationships destroyed and shattered.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2005, 10:34:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-06-23 06:49:00, Anonymous

 I can only imagine how betrayed and confused so many must have felt who had based their lives around the Seed only to find their lives shattered by the action of a few


See, this is the problem.  What action?  What Few? The people here are getting these coded explanations.

It isn't a secret anymore. Everyone knows that Libby and Art had a sho-down and Art got pissed and there was a split down Libby/Art lines. What is lacking is detail in the story. Not providing the detail only leads to inproper assumptions and incorrect conclusions by the vast majority of the people that are reading.

Please someone tell the story...tell it anonymously and no one will find out who spilled the beans.

Sometimes the right thing to do is find the integrity to right a wrong.  A wrong has been committed here on the people that built their life around this disfunction, and the right thing to do is to explain in detail what went down.

Lets let  the truth find its way here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2005, 10:41:00 AM »
The truth has found it way here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Stripe

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 286
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2005, 03:28:00 PM »
Greg,

I see your point there regarding the young tender age of the staff. I think in my memory, they were big scary people. I'm not sure though, that they did not know or understand what they were doing.  For me, it still boils down to accountabiity.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2005, 03:50:00 PM »
Stripe are you female?  The mustache kind of threw me.  Then again alot of us are in our late 40's and 50's.  What are you accountable for?   Did you take home newcomers? If you did were you accountable for them? :question:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2005, 05:09:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-06-23 12:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

  What are you accountable for?   Did you take home newcomers? If you did were you accountable for them?  "



This gets real cloudy, especially for those committed real young.

I knew I was selling out, even tho I was 14, but I saw no other way out.  I did some very shamefull things as a seedling. I threw a kid down hard on the concrete that was trying to run, I tortured my newcomer by keeping him up and generally being an asshole, I "motivated" my desire to Come down on other kids for little or no reason...among other things.

Whos fault is this? Certainly I was accountable but again I was a 14 year old kid. However, I could of resisted more, I know this for a fact.

So with forgiving others for the wrongs they did me there ( I forgive you all) I also forgive myself. This doesn't mean sugar coat or forget, it means I let go of the anger and hostility and understand that we all adopted mindsets of survival and immersion.  

From this position of forgiveness I think it is easier to understand what really occured because the facts become clearer, at least for me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2005, 05:13:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-06-23 12:28:00, Stripe wrote:

"Greg,



I see your point there regarding the young tender age of the staff. I think in my memory, they were big scary people.  "


You know, that is so funny because I felt the same way. Not too long ago I ran across a current picture of Libby and she is about 4'11 and just a small woman of little physical stature.

We were all kids Stripe. I think if we could pick Libby's mind now she would be regretfull of much of what she did.  I hope so anyway for her sake.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Stripe

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 286
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
The Great Mystery of the Final Days
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2005, 05:25:00 PM »
What am I accountable for?  Every thing I have ever done with respect to that program, and in my life gnerally.  I hope that someday I do have the opportunity to personally apologize to the one and only one new comer who was under my charge.  And no, I was not physically abusive or mean, but like all Seedlings, I followed the rules.  And yes, if that person had bad expereinces in life because of things I said or did, even if I was just following the company line, she deserves to have her problems acknowledged - especially any problems she might have as a direct result of having been a person under my charge.  Yes, I am accountable too, even if I DID NOT make a living off of that place.   Afterall, it's a two way street.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa