Summer Programs - Non-Lock Down?

[Anonymous]

Piper if you are looking for any one of these people to recomend a program, it won't happen they think that every single boarding school for troubled teens is abusive. It does not matter that they have not seen 98% of them. There are helpful programs, you just need to really investigate it before you make a choice. Be sure.
There are some out there that are not what you want. But to get helpful advice on where to find one, will not happen here.Most of these people belive it just because someone wrote it and said it is true. But as we know you can't believe everything you hear on the internet.
Good luck and be sure.

[Nihilanthic]

Why do you need to send your damn kids off anyway? Whats the real motive? I know your motive isnt "sending them off", its a means for another end?

What is that end?

This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
         
http://www.aidoann.com/guncontrol.html' target='_new'>Adolph Hitler

[Anonymous]

On 2005-05-31 10:56:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"Why do you need to send your damn kids off anyway? Whats the real motive? I know your motive isnt "sending them off", its a means for another end?



What is that end?

This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
         
http://www.aidoann.com/guncontrol.html' target='_new'>Adolph Hitler

"

Niles, if you were a parent, you wouldn't have to ask that. :smile: :smile: :smile:

It's okay to need a break from your kids.  Taking a break for your kids leaving them with responsible adults who will treat them decently is perfectly okay.  Sometimes the kids need a break from the parents, too.

When I was in fifth grade, my whole grade went to a boyscout camp for a week.  I had a blast.

I went to band camp for a week every summer in high school.  Boy, did we work hard and exercise hard.  And played pranks, too.  And the food was like the stuff they serve in most cafeterias like Piccadilly.  It was for something we wanted to do, and we wanted to be there, so we had fun.

The kicker is getting someplace that is not trying to change or fix your kids, but just a good old conventional summer camp, preferably with a slant towards the kid's hobbies or talents.

Katie's dance studio (before it closed) used to have one or two sleepovers a year.  My dh and I really enjoyed being able to go out on a date and have the house to ourselves for an evening.

There's nothing at all wrong with wanting and needing a break as a parent.  The key is making sure of who you're leaving your kid with.  Anybody who's offering to do something to your kid has to be looked at *very* carefully, because a lot of the methods these places use are lousy.

The guy said I won't recommend a single program.

Wrong.

The *real* Outward Bound, accept no substitutes, has a good reputation.  Then again, my understanding is that they don't treat the kids like bad kids who need to be "fixed."  They just have a good reputation of the kids enjoying the experience and, well, it seems that the kids learn hope from it because a lot of kids have never had a chance to go on that kind of adventure vacation and didn't know that kind of fun and beauty was even out there to be had.

All camps have rules.  All camps enforce their rules.  No camp lets a camper get away with being a royal brat---the counselors don't, and the other kids don't.

But summer camps are a lot more part of the real world than the Programs.  In summer camp, the rules aren't there to "fix" you, and they don't start with the assumption that you're "defective" and "have made a lot of bad choices."

In summer camp, you start off with a clean slate and you only catch hell if you blot your copybook *there*.  You have a great deal of *genuine* positive incentive to follow at least the important rules at least well enough to get along.

Kids break rules.  So do adults.  In the Real World, it's not whether or not you break the rules that matters---we all break the rules.  It's how much and which ones how careful you are not to hurt people and how well you take your medicine when caught.  As adults in the Real World, frequently we break the rules accidentally--we didn't know that was a rule.  As long as we don't do permanent serious harm, we cope and take our lumps---which are genuinely proportional to the seriousness of the rule--and we go on.

Summer camp is part of real life.  You may be on vacation--you are--but you still have to get along with the other campers, follow the basic rules, do your basic camp chores, etc.  The consequences and rules are real, natural, and proportional---not artificial.

Let's get it straight---when you talk "work" and "a lot of structure" you mean punishment.  You may not want to face that that's what you mean, but it is what you mean.  They start off punishing your child by taking away everything that makes a day worth getting out of bed for, make your child get out of bed and toe the line---with no positives to her day at all--until she "earns" back very small positive things one by one.

They'll tell you that's positive reinforcement they're using, but it's not.  It's negative reinforcement.  They put the child in an artificially harsh environment and then take away the pain, little by little, as rewards.  Only, because kids are made to inform on each other and kids lie, they get the punishment cranked back up for nothing at all, frequently.  The result is learned helplessness.

Teach a hundred rats learned helplessness.  Put them each in a vat of water, along with another hundred rats in another hundred vats, leave them until they drown and time them.  The rats taught learned helplessness give up, stop swimming, and drown faster than the rats without learned helplessness.

Learned helplessness is serious, permanent damage to an organism's mind.  Rat, pigeon, dog, cat, or human, it's a terrible, terrible thing.

Now, you may be mad enough at your kid to be thinking, "Yeah! Serve her right!"  

But you're talking about sending your kid to a punishment camp harsher than any grounding basically not for doing a specific bad thing, but just for existing and "being a bad kid."

I don't ground my daughter for "being a bad kid"---I ground her or punish her for specific serious infractions of our family rules.

If the programs started off with the kid in a conventional boarding school with conventional rules and only started taking away privileges for demerits and letting kids work them off *reasonably* (like the way the Citadel has cadets work off demerits by walking tours)---and I don't consider propaganda worksheets, staring at walls, or 50 page handwritten essays on what you did wrong, or time in isolation cells "reasonable" for adolescent children---then they wouldn't be so terribly damaging.

But sending a kid to a punishment camp just because you're, pardon my french, tired of her shit----that's like coming home and telling your kid, "You're grounded, and you're on a strict zero junk food diet, and I'm taking away all your clothes but two sets of sweats, and, by the way, here's your really huge list of chores and I don't want to talk to you or even see your face, because you're a terrible kid.  Oh, by the way, I love you and this is all for your own good."

The *details* of the punishment camp vary, but what really matters is it's a huge, gigantic punishment not for any specific thing they *did* but for who they *are*.

"I hate you, you rotten brat, but I really love you, and this is for your own good, and you'll thank me someday, because I don't want you, you brat, I can't stand you, I wish I had a decent kid and this place will turn you into one or half kill you trying.  Oh, and guess what, no matter what they do to you, I don't care, and I won't believe you, because nothing else matters to me than that I get some other kid back in your body instead of you, a *good* kid, because I really loathe you and I never want to see you again you rotten, rotten monster.  But I just *looooove* your true self this wonderful punishment camp is going to bring out in you, and it's for your own good because your rotten self should be dead, dead, dead.  I want a good kid, dammit!"

That's the real message parents send a kid when they send her to a Program.

No matter how much a parent says otherwise, their *actions* say that they really loathe that kid and want a different kid back.

And I suppose for many parents that's true.

But it doesn't sound like it's true of you, and so I hope that instead of sending your child to a punishment camp, you send your kids to different *regular* summer camps where they'll only be treated badly if they behave badly.

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

Pieper---If your other twin is so sincerely concerned and compassionate, and wants to stay home this summer, why would she have a cow about her sister going off to a summer camp that *wasn't* a punishment camp?

"Highly structured" and "work" are industry code for very harsh and punitive conditions.  So is "examine the choices that got them here."

If your other daughters are sincerely interested in the welfare of twin "A," then there should be no problem with sending her to a conventional summer camp and mentioning the obvious---all summer camps have rules, and if twin "A" breaks them, the camps have whatever they do when the kids break rules.  If twin "A" is a pain to the other campers, they'll respond in kind.

On the other hand, if she gets there and follows the rules and is nice to the other kids, she'll have a wonderful camp experience.

That's not true of any of the Programs (other than Outward Bound).  Well, more to the point, not true of any of the programs on the Level system.  And the overwhelming majority of behavior modification programs are on the level system.

They all start you off miserable from the get-go, just for being there, and you have to "earn" your way off of the punishing, harsh existence they set you---and mere good behavior is *never* enough---you have to either let them screw with your mind very deeply, or you have to be good enough at faking it to fool them, or you have to have the stamina to just endure the harsh initial circumstances until you get out---and most kids who pick the stamina route (rightly) blame their parents for the bad choice to send them there and want little or nothing to do with their parents until their parents see the light and apologize.

Please don't send your child to a punishment camp.

The places that say they'll fix your kid generally lie to parents and you have no idea how harshly they're treating your kid to deliver the apparent results of an apparently fixed kid who will toe the line until her 18th birthday to avoid getting sent back---but who has suffered horrible, serious psychological damage.

It's understandable to be upset at your daughter's bad choices.

But don't compound them with a bad choice of your own.  

Remember the first rule for avoiding cons:

If something sounds too good to be true, it is.

These places that say they can fix your kid?  They're *all* "too good to be true."

A conventional summer camp will do far more good and far less harm, and if you explain it compassionately that twin "A" needs some time away but in an environment with *realistic and responsible* rules, under realistic and responsible adult supervision---someplace that won't treat her badly unless and until she behaves badly----if your other daughters are compassionate and care about her, they'll be able to see that that's the best option.

And real summer camps are a lot cheaper than programs, anyway.

I don't know if you're religious, but "Vacation Bible School" camps usually don't cost a whole lot and, while they are devotional, they are not punitive.

Timoclea

On 2005-05-30 15:30:00, pieper wrote:

"Timo,



Hope this Memorial Day finds you reflective and at peace...



I'm sure I will miss something in your posts, but please don't construe that as non-receipt of the message.  Just under a tight time-constraint this evening since I "screwed off" at have been at the beach since very early this morning.



Therapy.  Yes.  This is in process.  I'll hopefully get her into a highly recommended therapist this coming week.  But alas, this week is also finals, so the juggling act begins anew. Either way, it IS an essential piece of the solution, and I realize that. However, as a kid my folks farmed me off to several therapists (one shrink and a few psychologists), and I hated every freakin' moment of those sessions. The former (shrink) was a med-freak, which really did nothing for me other than force me to drop my pants once a week for a shot and lots of RX co-pays for meds that did little more than make me sleepy.  That aside... I realize that is the starting point for recovery of whatever is ailing this beautiful child 'o mine. Or us. My oldest daughter is nearly 21 and almost outta the house, so isn't really directly affected.  However, she thinks Twin "A" is downright fucked up (committable, in her words)...



Without knowing mirror image twins intimately, I sincerely believe many cannot understand the bizarre dynamic involved, but DO concur that the "good" twin can easily and often play off that role in making the "bad" twin seem more bad. Yet in this case, the "good" twin's concern for her sister is overwhelming and sincere, and she seems to be doing her very best to remain neutral and trusting in me to help her twin.  But they still don't like one another... :smile:  Interestingly, they alternate the "good" and "bad" roles, and have since toddlerhood. Usually on an approximate bi-annual basis. But this run has lasted well over a year, and I am hoping to break the cycle for good.  They are old enough now to hopefully escape these roles.



And I do agree that I set fairly high standards, and expect all three girls to do their best...whatever plane that may bring them to. I also know my girls very well, having raised them alone since the twins were 2 yrs. old. And I know and accept their limitations AND strengths. I do not hold them to the same standards just because they are twins. Again, mirror imaging means one is right-brained, the other left. And there are HUGE differences as a result with vastly different skills, aptitudes, likes, strengths.



Any gripes I have with their father are minor and silent. They have the gripes with him, and rarely spend time with him.  She used last summer to "escape" the consequences of her behaviors, and played off his lack-of-experience/desire to hands-on parent.  And that is natural, but unfortunate.  Especially since she returned to rub her twins' nose in all the vacations, money, fun, and lack of responsibilities she lived for three months. In reality, he shipped her off to childless friends for much of the summer, and the rest she was free to spend online unsupervised in an empty house. But as you say, that's not necessarily "bad"... just different than my home. The end of our marriage was due to extended and intense abuse, BTW.  So my kids have never been close to their father. So twin "B" ("good") would not want to spend a summer w/her father.  She'd rather have root canals.  So that concept would not work as a reward.



While I appreciate what you've said about healing the adults, the reality is not what you may believe.  The kids have little contact with him -- nor desire to have more. I moved past my past MANY years ago (separated in 1993), and bear him no ill will nor harbor resentments.  A chapter in my life closed, healed and overcome.  So I am proceeding with counselling for my kids, and perhaps myself in learning to successfully address and overcome those issues.



I'd love to give twin "B" a "fun" summer, but she's lined up a parttime job, has softball and soccer here, and has a boyfriend, and wants to stay in her home enjoying these things. If I insisted ("you're going to GO... and you're going to have FUN", dammit!), that would equate to a punishment... not a reward.



Realistically, I cannot afford ANY of these programs.  The Anasazi one mentioned by PHX looks really great, safe, and wholesome, but it is extremely expensive and seems geared towards drug problems.  Mine's been smoking some weed, , but to my knowledge, it's nothing more than experimentation... and I expect that and accept that and trust she'll come out of the experience a little wiser.  That unto itself is not our crisis.



I am sure this is disjointed.  I apologize...  and I DO sincerely thank you for your input, suggestions, and obvious compassion.  You're clearly a very grounded, bright, and insightful lady.  Thank you.



-pieper"

[Anonymous]

The tone of my first response on this page was harsher than I meant it to be, Pieper.

That wasn't at you.

I get so mad at these places that it comes across when I talk about them and I really wasn't trying to take it out on you.

You don't sound like you're looking for a punishment camp, but all the places on the level system and a huge number of the "wilderness camps" actually are punishment camps.

They present themselves to parents as much less harsh than they are, and we see on here over and over again parents who go pick their kid up and find out their kid has been living in conditions that absolutely appall them and that weren't anything at all like the brochures and the web pages described.

So I was mad at them, not you, and I apologize for the portions of my tone that came across as mad at you.

I may not have seen these places, but we've had parents on here that we've encouraged to go pick up their kids---and the parents have come back and told us that their kid was being treated just like we had said we were afraid of.

Search on Chi3 to see a recent example of this.  She had her child at Carolina Springs and thought it was fine, until she talked to child welfare and the lady couldn't tell her outright that the place was bad news but hinted broadly enough that Chi3 went and got her daughter.  She was glad she did.  Her daughter was being treated a lot more harshly than Chi3 had expected her to be.

Maybe some of the summer wilderness camps aren't bad.  Outward Bound itself, the original, is reportedly not bad.

The problem is that the ones that are bad lie to parents and misrepresent themselves so badly that you can't find the ones that aren't bad.  And the very worst ones can be very, very good at putting up a good front and *looking* like they're fabulous.

I understand "committable"---I have bipolar disorder, it's one of the two worst mental illnesses.  I'm stable on meds.  Not perfect, but functional and safe and generally getting along in life.

If your daughter is really is "committable" (if that's not just hyperbole) then she has a mental illness of some sort.  Maybe you didn't have one, maybe meds just made you sleepy, maybe "committable" was hyperbole.  But if she does have one, then she needs treatment and the right meds in the right doses from the right psychiatrist can be an important and necessary component of an effective treatment plan.

If it was hyperbole, fine.  'Nuff said.

If it wasn't, nothing will help if you don't effectively treat the underlying mental illnesses.  The National Institutes of Mental Health---the federal government organization for studying mental illness---has said that Programs that place mentally ill children alongside juvenile delinquents do more harm than good to the mentally ill children.

So if it's not hyperbole, and she seems "committable"---see a psychiatrist and get it checked out.  *You* might not be mentally ill, but if she is she could really benefit from treatment.

Timoclea

[The Liger]

I was the family black sheep.  (I bet a lot of people here were.)  I would act worse and worse the more I was labeled as such.  It was a defense mechanism, like someone already said.  Once I felt like the bad one, I had no hope that anyone would ever think of me any other way, so I pretended to like my new role.  I thought that my siblings were just as bad as I was, but better at hiding it.  I always had a hunch that my parents loved them better than me, and it was confirmed when I was sent away.  Our family had problems, but because mine were the most obvious, I was the one sent away.  My parents thought I was disrupting the lives of my siblings.  I was worse when I got back.  I hated my family more than ever.  

I guess what I'm saying is that your daughter is probably hurting and locked into her role.  Sending her away may confirm for her what she already fears - that you don't love her.  (I'm not saying that you don't.  I think you have proved that you do by all of your research.)

By the way, my family is okay now.  We'll never be close - I keep them at arm's length.  I don't trust them because as far as I'm concerned, they broke my trust.  But I realize that they didn't know what to do, and had no other advice but to send me away.

Oh, also, I was a princess when I was a teenager and I still am today.  But I did realize at some point that if I wanted to live like a princess, I'd have to get a college education and get a J-O-B!  So I did.

Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Oh my gosh, haven't read all the responses to the initial parent writing in about considering Oak Creek Ranch.  We looked at it a little over three years ago, and did not feel it was a safe place at ALL for our child.  We arrived unannounced and saw some very disturbing things about it.  One thing that was a huge turnoff was that there was a street that went right through the school, that was pretty well traveled by residents who lived further down the road.  The kids looked unkempt, no dress code, lots of scary goth type kids, and no adult supervision in the common area where two teens, a boy and a girl, were watching TV in a dark room, making out and all over each other.  A staff was present in the office adjacent to the room that the kids were in, and he was smoking.  We left and didn't even come back in the morning for the formal interview and tour.  Not good unless it has made a 360 turnaround.

[Anonymous]

pieper,

Let me know if you need any more info about it, although it was three years ago.

[Nihilanthic]

On 2005-05-31 20:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Oh my gosh, haven't read all the responses to the initial parent writing in about considering Oak Creek Ranch.  We looked at it a little over three years ago, and did not feel it was a safe place at ALL for our child.  We arrived unannounced and saw some very disturbing things about it.  One thing that was a huge turnoff was that there was a street that went right through the school, that was pretty well traveled by residents who lived further down the road.  The kids looked unkempt, no dress code, lots of scary goth type kids, and no adult supervision in the common area where two teens, a boy and a girl, were watching TV in a dark room, making out and all over each other.  A staff was present in the office adjacent to the room that the kids were in, and he was smoking.  We left and didn't even come back in the morning for the formal interview and tour.  Not good unless it has made a 360 turnaround."

Is this a troll job? lol! How is a street going to go right through a school, exactly? I suppose that its comprised of several buildings, (because a street going though a building is impossible), and the grounds of the camp straddle the street?  

As far as the goth kids or lack of dresscode... WHO CARES? Making out in the middle of some summer camp does seem a bit odd, though. Most camps are segregated by gender in the dorms, and the official stance (like all places these days) would be "NO PDA" right? But, I guess nature takes its course in common areas if there isnt some adult to tell them "no".

Ultimately, making out is harmless. Unless you hire chauffeurs to shadow your children or throw them in lockup, they're going to make out if they are post-pubescent, anyway.

All who doubted or denied would be lost. To live a moral and honest life -- to keep your contracts, to take care of wife and child -- to make a happy home -- to be a good citizen, a patriot, a just and thoughtful man, was simply a respectable way of going to hell.
--

[pieper]

Nil,

(because a street going though a building is impossible)

Couldn't resist.  Not true!  Can't recall which, but a street runs through the formerly-known-as PanAm building in Manhattan. Okay, technically under it I suppose...

And I am nearly certain, without being clairvoyant, that the street ran through the school complex/compound/campus.

Back later with more serious responses.

-pieper

[pieper]

Liger,

Your post really seems to "name that tune" with my troubled daughter.  She often ridicules herself, which I can now see as an extension of the normal "joshing" amongst the family... a resignation to and exaggeration of the silly comments about characteristics made over the years. For instance, she's VERY gifted at falling UP the stairs... no reason other than being distracted, but it's become a standing joke in the house. Not mean-spirited at all. Her twin is likewise gifted at tripping OUT of the bathtub. When troubled twin was real little, she'd always say "huh", so that became an appendage to her given name, etc. Again, not mean-spirited.  I can now see that her temperment and/or psyche absorbed those little, innocous, in-good-fun comments and became stuck ("locked in") on them... drawing inferences that were unintended and absorbing them in an exaggerated manner.  Unlike my other girls, this one has for some reason dwelled on the "negative" she extracted in her life rather than the positive. And from those little, bitty things, she's come to feel less-loved, less-special, less-intelligent. A real revelation for me.  And a source of terrible sadness and regret. Boy, am I hurting right about now.  But apparently not nearly as much as she is.

This all may also partially explain some of her other recent behaviors which in my heart I know are not really "her"; like gender issues, cutting herself(minor), smoking, piss-poor school work, etc.  All actions that she's taken to counter her former image of a very sweet, studious, responsible, gorgeous, meticulous, athletic,and focused young lady who was crazy about clothes, boys, soccer, track, blahblahblah. She seems to have re-defined herself in the lowliest image based on family and non-family joshing or comments.

Ironically, her twin has been dubbed "the evil one" for the past 5+ years due to her devious humor and gothic/punk style.  Yet she's remained "intact" and extremely happy.  Another instance of the odd nature of twins, I suppose! And a real lesson in inherent traits v. environmental influences.

Wow.  Thanks for your post... which truly has defined what is likely the root of Twin "A"s situation. Just hope it can all be reversed and this child "salvaged".  We are awaiting our appt. with a counselor... and I'm prayin' she'll be a positive facilitator, and my daughter will be receptive and willing to heal.

Thanks, Liger.  Most sincerely.

pieper

[pieper]

Anon 20:05,

Thanks a bunch for your input as a first-hand observer!  I'd pretty much decided against just about every program/camp option already... mostly as a result of the feedback from the folks here, some soul-searching and serious budget issues, but every additional shred of feedback is most certainly appreciated and filed away in memory.

The internet is a wonderful, wonderful tool!  Thank you...

pieper

[pieper]

Spots,

Sorry for the slow response... no disrespect intended at all.

Due to logisitics, camp for both twins this summer isn't possible. My other daughter's a little too old for camp (21), so she's out of that picture. :smile:

I work alot of side jobs (concerts) in the summer months, plus am in the midst of guardianship proceedings for my nephews and niece out West, and one twin has a work committment (first job and all!), the other may be attending summerschool ALL summer-long.  Just so many obstacles. Had I only known about the problems I'm now seeing *months* ago, perhaps I could have managed camp(s) this summer.  But I surely WILL look towards sending them each their own way next summer, and think that's a really good idea. I spent many of my summers at Campfire camps, then later at horse/beach camps, and those are some of the best memories of my youth without a doubt.

Thanks for validating my thoughts and standing as a parent. And for reminding me of one of my Mom's most-oft cited sayings... "this too shall pass".  There is hope. Those are invaluable thoughts right about now.

Thanks, Spots...

pieper

[pieper]

Timo,

No offense taken to any tone in anyone's posts here, but appreciate your owning up to your anger.  That's not always easy to do.  Having spent 10+ years moderating boards,chats & web sites for a major ISP (including medical and mental health issues), I'm pretty adept and understanding of the 'net world and the sometimes misplaced emotions. I've got a real thick skin that way! But I thank you...

More incidents have occurred in this house over the last few days bringing to light how truly "at risk" this child is, and therapy is a definite, immediate need.  Without therapy, this one will be in a locked psych ward at the rate she's accelerating her "acting out", and not at my behest. :sad:  I'm hoping to get the appointment tomorrow, but know I have to be patient and not irritating to the professional whose assistance I'm seeking.  Frustrating given what's happening.

I've learned SOOoo much here.  I cannot express how grateful I am to have stumbled in these doors and to have received so many responses to my queries.  It's a wonderful feeling to know your questions and thoughts are deserving of so many people's time and concern, and that they aren't yours alone.

pieper

[Deborah]

The link below came to my mailbox a few weeks ago. I know nothing about the school/program, but at first glance, it appears that they offer a useful experience. IF your kiddo would enjoy that type of thing, or agree to give it a try.
Wilderness is not inherently bad, only when it is used as punishment, imho.
Many a parent has 'bribed' their kid to try new things, just for the experience.  
What are your child's interests?
I'm way behind on reading here, so pardon me if I'm asking questions or making suggestions that have already been offered.
The link:
http://www.kroka.org/programs-school.shtml

I know there are other similar programs that aren't about forced marches, brow beating and humiliation.